Has anyone from GGG acknowledged or apologized for the last few leagues?

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

What I meant by that is are third party tools 'assisting' your game, 'supporting' it or just outright making it 'playable' for your average consumer? And we both know I'm way too far out of the Wraeclast loop to even begin to make that call but I don't have to -- those of you still playing probably should though, if only to yourselves. On the other hand, if you're still playing, you probably have...if only to yourselves. And judging from your spoiler addendum, yeah...ugh. Wow.

My gut says no, that PoE wouldn't die without its tools, for the same reason as I don't believe that Constant Player is necessarily PoE's main concern

A few years ago I would have agreed completely with this conclusion that PoE didn't really have any critical third party tools, especially after GGG implemented trade database interface.

I no longer agree though, at least paint me skeptical. What has happened in the last few years is that PoE has gotten much more opaque. I used to routinely create my own builds when playing PoE. Now, I think it unlikely that I could routinely create my own builds that could clear the atlas. If I couldn't easily grab builds using Path of Building, I don't think I'd keep playing for long.

Now if it wasn't for PoB it could be argued that build guides in the forum would still be popular. That is probably true. This would make PoB optional again rather than critical for a large portion of the players like it is now.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

What I meant by that is are third party tools 'assisting' your game, 'supporting' it or just outright making it 'playable' for your average consumer? And we both know I'm way too far out of the Wraeclast loop to even begin to make that call but I don't have to -- those of you still playing probably should though, if only to yourselves. On the other hand, if you're still playing, you probably have...if only to yourselves. And judging from your spoiler addendum, yeah...ugh. Wow.

My gut says no, that PoE wouldn't die without its tools, for the same reason as I don't believe that Constant Player is necessarily PoE's main concern

A few years ago I would have agreed completely with this conclusion that PoE didn't really have any critical third party tools, especially after GGG implemented trade database interface.

I no longer agree though, at least paint me skeptical. What has happened in the last few years is that PoE has gotten much more opaque. I used to routinely create my own builds when playing PoE. Now, I think it unlikely that I could routinely create my own builds that could clear the atlas. If I couldn't easily grab builds using Path of Building, I don't think I'd keep playing for long.

Now if it wasn't for PoB it could be argued that build guides in the forum would still be popular. That is probably true. This would make PoB optional again rather than critical for a large portion of the players like it is now.

<3

I mean, as usual it's something I kind of wanted to be wrong about but between DS44's summary of TFT (about which I know so little and of that little, 99.99% has been very negative indeed) and your assessment of the critical nature of PoB (and this is coming from someone with web bookmarks for pretty much any current ARPG that has a web-based character builder -- GD, W, IM40K, LE, more W) I must concede entirely.

If I may, I want to focus a little bit on this notion of a third party character builder not just as a personal planning tool but as a build sharer. To my knowledge, most popular games with builders have had this function so it's not like PoE is pioneering anything there. I like to grab existing builds and tweak the shit out of them for my personal preferences but I have never in my life grabbed someone else's build and used it as is. To me, that's about as fulfilling and entertaining as writing someone else's book word-for-word. Sure, I get to type the words myself but they're not *mine*. So I suppose I looked at existing build usage as more like a foundational approach -- nothing is truly original, we learn by looking at what works and making it our own, etc etc.

Now if you are right, and there is a significant chunk of PoE that cannot be reasonably handled without rote build copying/construction, then oh man the game is in a far worse place than I thought. We need to acknowledge here that you are not a true top tier player, and so there will always be those who say NO TD U R WRONG IT CAN BE DONE I DID IT L2P NOOBCAKES or whatever, and that's also not necessarily wrong. What we need to do then is find not an absolute truth but a relatively useful one: how many players are in your circumstances, and how many are in the latter? That's for GGG to figure out, and I wouldn't be surprised if some version of that query isn't one of their main concerns. (is one of their main concerns? Leaving that Freudian slip in for shits and giggles.)

Because what you've done here is pretty big: you're accusing GGG of making the game so opaque, so inaccessible, that ONLY Constant Player can play it their way and everyone else has to follow their footsteps with the precision of Indiana Jones trying to spell out the Name of God. This is a critical failure of game design...IF true. Has PoE become that sort of niche game that rewards only two types of people: those clever enough to figure it out, and those who are intelligent enough to follow very complex instructions? Really? Is that where it is? As I said, I expect disagreement from Constant Player. I invite it.

Because if they're the only ones defending it then the answer is yes.

But back to you: you say you can no longer conjure effective builds and just mimic others, 'grab' them as you put it. Is that fun? I've already clarified it wouldn't be for me, because while I am content to drive a car identical to so many others in real life, in a game I want to pretend I'm not just a driver but also an engineer and a mechanic. Is the act of driving itself enough to entertain you when the entire premise of the ARPG if not any game with some form of avatar customisation is to be much more than just the driver? (note I said avatar, not character: I'm playing Ace Combat right now, and somehow a fighter jet is also customisable with parts and upgrades; see also giant 'mechs in MW5.)

I suppose the difference here is that opacity -- games typically go out of their way to make the secondary experience of tinkering with your avatar/vehicle/character accessible and 'game-like' rather than close enough to the reality as to be a chore and something you'd be paid to do were it real life. That simplifying of the experience to make it enjoyable and accessible is the core of gaming isn't it? All the way back to shit like Pitfall: I remember guiding my little Indy-wannabe over pits and crocodiles via rope swings and jumps. At no point did the game make me consider the precise length of the rope to make the swinging safe, or the speed required to make the jump safely. Now that was as much a limitation of the tech at the time as it was deliberate game design -- I recently tried a golf game on ps5 and was utterly horrified at how many fucking factors I had to take into account to hit the damn ball. What happened to holding space, letting go of space, and boom off we go? I am NOT a professional golfer nor am I Indiana Jones. Don't make me feel like I need to be as competent as my character to enjoy your game! Just give me the illusion of it. That suffices. And that's coming from someone who really enjoyed Elite: Dangerous, which is as good a game as any as making you FEEL like you're competently and effectively piloting a spaceship and not just telling it what to do or getting bogged down in pointless details.

And here's where PoE really gets it wrong: it demands that you be far more aware of your character's gamified minutiae than they ever would be. To wit: there is no way an Exile would bother with the Skilldrasil, active and support gem configurations, item 'crafting', fossils, essences, Atlas modifications, clunky trading, and so on. That's all busywork meant to represent how intricate an Exile's progression is. And if we think of it in good old driving terms, what it does is make you so absorbed by the dashboard that you never actually look at the road. Thankfully the instruments are powerful enough that you generally don't have to, but where'd the game go?

(Coincidentally, I also think this is part of why PoE has an OHKO problem: that's when your engagement with the dashboard is inadequate and you suddenly run into a wall the instruments failed to pick up OR didn't pick up in time. And now you know why I'm leery of self-driving cars. I'm far younger than you but an oldfuck in my own outdated ways...)

It's about as interesting as putting biometrics into Pitfall. Or a golf simulator. God, I'm probably just giving GGG bad ideas here.

Point being, there should be harmony between what a character feels like to play and what it is actually doing. Complexity is fine as long as it's in service of that core game experience. See again: Elite Dangerous. Ironically PoE's complexity is so far down its own gamified rabbit hole that is simultaneously too realistic and completely unrealistic. It feels like real work to get it all going...but relies on basic silliness like hammerspace (infinite ammo and no reload times of ranged weapons being a simple example there) and thus feels utterly unbelievable at the oddest of times. It's as though it wants to be taken seriously as an ARPG but doesn't play by the basic rules of a serious ARPG. And that's why no matter how dark and grim or gritty they make it, no matter how complicated they make the inner workings of the character, it never quite transcends cartoon-level action. It was closer to 'serious' in 2012, when it was much simpler (but still horribly complicated compared to anything else around) than it is now, at least going by my brief foray into Arch-Nemesis. I remember in 2012 the game was praised for its weightiness over That Other Game's floaty feel. Its logical passive system over That Other Game's gear-based up arrow good down arrow bad dumbing-down.

Good lord what happened no don't answer that.



And correct me if I'm misremembering but didn't GGG employ the creator of PoB at some point? About as overt an acknowledgment of third party necessity as any. What came of that?

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Because what you've done here is pretty big: you're accusing GGG of making the game so opaque, so inaccessible, that ONLY Constant Player can play it their way and everyone else has to follow their footsteps with the precision of Indiana Jones trying to spell out the Name of God. This is a critical failure of game design...IF true.

This is a monstrous task of judgement when considering what a new or new-ish player may be bringing to the table from their past gaming experience. Suffice to say, the more experience you bring to the table, the more you can intuit about what the hell you should be doing in this game. It's a doubly monstrous task when you consider the years of experience clouding any chance we'd have of wearing a new players shoes.

I would recommend anybody watch Professional Gamer and Content Creator "Preach" and his foray into the game without any warnings, foreknowledge, experience, or coaching. He brought nothing other than 15 levels of Diablo 3 experience and 15 years of hardcore World of Warcraft playing to the table. His overall experience shows that someone with a whole lot of rpg (and real time action combat) experience under their belts can figure the game out and push into red maps. Preach even bitched that the game wasn't hard enough in spots lol...he was upset that act bosses didn't regain their hp when he failed and thought 'corpse running' a boss was bs design.

I've coached friends through maps too, although they don't fare as well as Preach, they figure it out with a little guidance. Ask them to look at their defense tab. Are your resists capped? Check their gear. Tell them what their worst piece is so they know what to identify off the ground or search the trade site for. Send them a wiki link in discord to a unique item that might be good for them and ask "have you considered this item?". I look at it as being a lighthouse, constantly making sure they aren't scuttling themselves on the rocks of Wraeclast.

What can an even less experienced player hope for? I don't know.

What can a veteran hope for? Imo any vet should be able to take any meme build to and through T10 maps. But what's the question again?

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[is there] a significant chunk of PoE that cannot be reasonably handled without rote build copying/construction?

Now isn't that the rub? What is a significant chunk? Jaded reddit elitists will tell you that if a build can't clear uber pinnacle bosses on day 3 of a fresh league on a 50c budget than said build and its primary skill is 'literally unplayable'. You know the type. They're on their 3rd straight league of playing Spectral Helix/Seismic Trap absolutely BEGGING GGG to change skill balance so that they 'can play something else'.

But one has to define what a significant chunk of the game is before taking GGG to task about whether or not a new...ish player can accomplish it without a guide.

Any of the players in question will need the wiki though, there's no doubt about that. But I've never felt it to be fair to hold that against a game with any reasonable measure of depth and complexity. In my WoW days I would have wowhead open. In my warframe days I would have that wiki open (even with a long time player coaching me in voice chat). The other apps? Depends totally on your goals, just like anything.

You can't write a novel on a napkin, but I'm sure a good writer could still manage something compelling. In the same way, can you beat all content in PoE playing a build you've never played before without touching the wiki or PoB?
Probably not. But at that point the project goals are no longer aligned with the tools in the toolbox. That's the point at which you'd be trying to write a novel on a napkin.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

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I think two critical factors here that are just personal preference. First, much depends on how far one wishes to play into the game. How far through the storyline or how far into the endgame. So for example, for myself, I like the storyline but most enjoy playing maps. Second, what interests the player, what the player finds fun. For example, I guess I've just kind of grown tired of build analysis and am more interested in simple "kill monsters get loot" gameplay.

I could still probably make most skills work well enough to get through most if not the whole storyline. I mostly want to play maps though. So, it makes more sense to me to leverage the build planning of more knowledgeable players.

I think the game has gotten in what I called a relatively opaque state from years of nerfs and buffs as GGG keeps trying to keep things interesting for the player base.

My simple mind summed up the original game as three basic kinds of characters, witches (intelligence, spells, energy shield), marauders (strength, melee, armor), and rangers (dexterity, bows, evasion). Then the other three classes were hybrids of two of the basic classes. Ascendancy then came along and blurred those categories somewhat.

For example, for a few years I focused on Ranger builds. This was before they implemented ascendancy. The basic formula was high dexterity, high evasion, bows with big physical damage, good critical damage and as much life as I could get. It was a formula that worked well for years. GGG nerfed it and buffed monsters.

It is hard to say the percentage of players that copies builds rather than playing their own builds. Most players probably don't usually even finish the storyline. They probably don't copy builds generally. I guess the so-called opaque nature of build design could be viewed as a failure in design. I'd say that PoE had a very great overall design but after many years of small changes that original vision has been blurred. The overriding goal being to keep players coming back each league. This has been accomplished by piling on lots of smaller changes, additions, nerfs and buffs. Which has made character build design more opaque.

I will refrain from saying the obvious regarding your apparent desires for an ARPG and take refuge in platitude: I hope the game and you reconcile at some point.

innervation: I am processing all of that, but what did you mean by 'monstrous task of judgment'?

And you do know there's some irony in you telling me to watch content-created videos after that particular rant, right? ;)

Who cares if they have acknowledged or apologized. Just do not support their "vision" financially or fall for the hype train if you are unhappy with the game. There is a reason the 100's of people I have played with in this game do not play anymore, and why I have no hope for the game in the near future.

Just play meta builds and pretend the game is in a good state or go elsewhere.

they said that their A team is working on POE2 and can't put in the effort to make great leagues, or something like that.

POE2 better blow us away to make up for it, but seeing how the game has actually gotten worse and less fun, it's hard to be that excited for it. I hope they just keep the old POE running just in case POE2 is trash tbh.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

innervation: I am processing all of that, but what did you mean by 'monstrous task of judgment'?

And you do know there's some irony in you telling me to watch content-created videos after that particular rant, right? ;)

Just that we can never wrap our minds around the new player experience. And hey, there are a lot of games that are more fun to watch than play. PoE probably not one of them. Or at least, if it ever becomes more fun to watch than play, that's a sign of some serious issues. (excluding events like the 4 person exilecon race of course).

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innervation wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

innervation: I am processing all of that, but what did you mean by 'monstrous task of judgment'?

And you do know there's some irony in you telling me to watch content-created videos after that particular rant, right? ;)

Just that we can never wrap our minds around the new player experience. And hey, there are a lot of games that are more fun to watch than play. PoE probably not one of them. Or at least, if it ever becomes more fun to watch than play, that's a sign of some serious issues. (excluding events like the 4 person exilecon race of course).

It's funny because I really tried to emulate it last time I played -- no mtxes, no warm-up, just jump in -- and while the game had changed a heck of a lot during my absence, too much of it was still baked in as muscle memory and instinct of sorts. But I can speak to new player experiences as far back as 2012 and 2013, and even then it was wildly overwhelming for a lot of people. It has only grown in complexity since, so from that at least we can extrapolate that the new player experience, ARPG veteran status notwithstanding, is intense and consuming.

And I actually disagree. If it becomes more fun to watch than play, then GGG will have succeeded in creating the perfect stage for their 'community'.