Why don't we call crafting "gambling"?

I don't know what it should be called but it has minimum player agency.

I put up a link to gamblers anon and they got mad and took it down lol.

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SimpleSiren911 wrote:

I put up a link to gamblers anon and they got mad and took it down lol.

Haha! That's good.

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Imaginaerum wrote:

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JoeUtopia wrote:

What’s really funny is that this type of “gambling” would never be legally sanctioned in the US because the failure rate is way too high. Casino control commissions (in US) would require better player odds.

ok, counter point
this is a video game

Omg…. It was a joke

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Gordyne wrote:

What you're not realizing is that when you farm you are also gambling. You don't have any control over what drops except area lvl and which influences you want. And a few atlas passives.

IDing items is no different than using a chaos orb.

Some people want PoE to be a game that it's not. It is based on D2 and one of the most appealling traits D2 has that created this genre is the randomness that creates excitement.

You never know what is going to drop and that's what added to D2's fun. It's not going to change.

There IS an option for people that want more steady progress, it's called TRADE.

You spend currency -> you get most items you want

Almost the same as crafting.

I would have to agree if people didn't want to bother with the old trade system which was horrible to use but the new one they implemented a few years ago makes things 100x easier.

If some people don't want to trade that's ok. If some people don't want to manually avoid any boss attack in the game it's also their choice...

No that's actually exactly what I'm saying. Let the "gambling" (or more accurately the RNG) be in the items that drop.

Farming for items that can have the stats you want is not the same as gambling with items you already have. They would have to adjust what can be dropped and maybe increase the chances but I'd love to see this crappy orb gambling system disappear.

I much prefer D2's system. You farm bosses for items. You don't farm for orbs and fossils and all this gambling nonsense.

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MrSparkle001 wrote:

I much prefer D2's system. You farm bosses for items. You don't farm for orbs and fossils and all this gambling nonsense.

So, you'd rather take items as they drop, rather than have a plethora of means and methods by which you can modify what drops?

You're not complaining about gambling. You're complaining about not being able to make exactly what you want. =9[.]9=

this forum owns the term "crambling" (crafting+gambling) for the process.


[Removed by Support]

edit: thanks isaac. yeah, shouldn't call reddit folks names but they stole "crambling" for the cheap meme of "crangling". i'm still a bit pissed and, wen asked, they can't even confess where it came from.

We call the usage of currency to gamble on the nature of items 'crafting' for one simple reason: that's what GGG called it from the start. They knew exactly what they were doing when they called it that: legitimising the gambling aspect to item modification and thus weakening players' natural resistance to it. Not that said resistance was ever necessarily particularly strong: you wouldn't be an ARPG devotee if you didn't have SOME taste for gambling, for the rush of clicking a mouse button and getting something rarer than usual. Well-worn path, let's move on...

I recognised GGG's subtle-as-a-brick-up-the-butt approach to rebranding gambling as 'crafting' pretty early and determined that the only way (at least in PoE beta) to have true crafting in the game was vendor recipes -- nothing innovative but somewhat unique to a game fiercely committed to simulating modified dice rolls at pretty much every level. Hence the recipes for my second and third uniques -- it was only after I convinced GGG to allow me to have a deterministic drop that I turned away from that method of unique generation (deterministic drops are awesome, but of course they went and made the monster that always drops it randomly spawn; you're still fucking gambling when you pound sand for the Bitchblade...).

[I wasn't the first to create a vendor recipe unique -- that distinction goes to former moderators siffin/duolc and metronomy, who designed soul taker (duolc), heart breaker (metro) and king maker (with their forces combined...). Ironically, Soul Taker was so OP virtually no one bothered to create King Maker (!!).]

Back on-topic: a recipe is by its nature 'crafting' and 'deterministic': you put in the right ingredients, use the right ratios, follow the instructions, and get the expected outcome (give or take; Christ there are some bad recipes on the internet, especially for baked crispy sweet potato, which I am sure is a fucking myth; PM me if you have a failsafe method please). Vendor recipes in PoE function just like this and are therefore true crafting (variables of various item attributes on uniques notwithstanding). Later, the crafting table added a second means of true crafting, which I deeply appreciated for leveling. I would argue that specific divination cards are also true crafting: mine is, rain of chaos is, and any card exchange that gives a guaranteed return is. Div cards that give, say, 'random unique item', are not true crafting, but instead just further abstracted gambling.

I suppose essences are also true crafting. Hardly an exhaustive list; any process in which you apply one item to reliably modify another is 'true crafting'. Anything where you're forced to use multiples of the same item to attempt a desired outcome is not true crafting; it is gambling. Needless to say, modifiers to the outcome without guaranteeing it are still gambling.

The issue I take with PoE's crafting is, to my admittedly limited experience, the reward for gambling is far, far higher than for true crafting regardless of the cost of true crafting. Simple example: the once-legendary 6L. Originally you had to just roll a bunch of fusing orbs on a 6S and hope and pray. Later, Chris added a recipe for true 6L crafting at the table: 1,500 fusings. This was not a random number; on average, at the time, it took slightly less than 1,500 fusing orbs to get a 6L. Initially all you needed to do this was get Vorici to level 7, but said recipe is currently 'hidden' fairly deep into Delve -- another way of discouraging people who want to use true crafting vs spinning the wheel. That aside, the psychology won out over logic: the possibility of getting a 6L outcome from fewer than 1,500 fusing orbs far outweighs the probability of it. Far more people 'rolled' 6L than used the Vorici/Delve grind. Same reason people IRL might gamble here and there at 100 to 1 odds instead of saving it with 1-2% ROI. It's fun and 'you never know'. Again, well-trodden path.

And I'm hardly innocent here: I did actually roll a 6L for about 10 fusings after saving up about 1200 for that recipe (I quit the game not long after, for unrelated reasons but man, as good an 'I won the game, never again' as any. that). Whoo, joy. What I conveniently didn't think of at the time was how many fusing orbs I'd used on other items and not even gotten a fucking 4 or 5L, or that I was a mere 300 away from truly crafting it. Instead of earning it, I gambled for it. And naturally I didn't appreciate it as much, because I didn't deserve it -- anyone who thinks they deserve what they've won from any number of spins of the wheel is fucking lying to themselves. The mind tricks we play on ourselves when it comes to enjoying gambling in the moment are spectacular...

___

ANYWAY, that's why it's called crafting, and it's no trivial matter here because language determines meaning, and GGG co-opted English to give their gambling false meaning by unfairly elevating it to a craft. You can and should call it gambling, to yourself if not necessarily with others to whom it might be confusing and require explanation. One crucial step to indoctrination is allowing someone else's agenda-driven definition of a word to overwrite your own...especially when you know yours is true. Rare as that may be.

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Mikrotherion wrote:

I think calling it gambling would not really describe what it is.
"Luck based crafting" would be more like it, because unlike in real gambling, you can have a strategy.

There isn't a single gambling system out there wherein participants don't believe in a strategic approach, old friend. Not. One. I've seen people opine on strategy for Two-Up -- LITERALLY nothing more than people gambling on the outcome of two flipped coins.

'Luck-based crafting' is a euphemism for PoE's gambling. A good one, but that's all it is. I'm sorry.

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JoeUtopia wrote:

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Mikrotherion wrote:

I think calling it gambling would not really describe what it is.
"Luck based crafting" would be more like it, because unlike in real gambling, you can have a strategy.
Some gear is "easy to craft", because you can follow an algorithm that leads you to your desired result (I think +2 +1 fire staves used to be an example, or +2 +1 Bows for poison arrow).

What’s really funny is that this type of “gambling” would never be legally sanctioned in the US because the failure rate is way too high. Casino control commissions (in US) would require better player odds.

Hmmm... I find D2 system rather stagnant tbh(althought I love D2)

I would love if we could farm any area in D2 for most drops. Farming Mephisto for the 200th time gets nauseating.

As I said before I don't think the orbs/crafting are a problem. The problem is that monsters/bosses were buffed too much and a lot of power comes from gear now.

Even if they removed crafting they would have to adjust things for the economy. "There is no free lunch" if you get what I mean. In the end you'll have to play a lot if you want good items in a system where good items are rare, it doesn't matter how these items come into existence.

It all comes down to build variety which is what most people want, and items weight heavily on the balance, but skill gem balance/melee/monster stats and mechanics are more of a factor for the whole insatisfaction.

Because then it would be called "Path of Gambling" and in some countries Gambling is forbidden for people under certain ages, or just simply prohibited like in China...Unless they state out the chances of the gambles which they will not.

Beside crafting ( cuz they like to call it crafting still after they nerfed harvest) everything else is a gamble or RNG.