POE Heading to D3 Land...please reconsider

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SL4Y3R wrote:

you need to trade to get decent gear in this game.

we should change that then

Just want to say that I would prefer crafting over trading. If somehow the balance of the economy could shift where crafting was more viable I'd appreciate that. Right now I have to beg people to pretty please let me buy a Soul Mantle for less that 20 pure exalt. i'd rather just find a way of crafting my own.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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SL4Y3R wrote:

you need to trade to get decent gear in this game.

we should change that then

Damn phone lol. Oh well. If one were to price all my gear, gems, etc. Probably around 50+ exalts easily. Hell, include maps and it's a lot more. Self found ftw

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SL4Y3R wrote:

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Undon3 wrote:

Just to clear a misunderstanding some people see to have about WoW in this topic...

WoW progress is hardly so based on trading as suggested. There is a very limited number of items you could get for you build through trading, the vast majority of gear is "self-found", from quests, dungeons, heroics, raids... Yes, you'd still get 1-2 crafted items if you have money, and 2-3 BoE drops if you have even more money, but your end-game itemisation is based on (what is "self-found" in PoE...) drops 90%+, and spending on gear before the endgame is foolish. Also, WoW prices are not even remotely so exorbitant for decent gear as in PoE, as you know, the AH self-regulates.

Now, compare this to PoE, where self-found gear is 90% bad or incomplete and in needing of additional "crafting". Where trading is not streamlined and makes you use external sites and posting offers, without any commitment to the auction... Where the prices for decent items are huge... Where you cannot rely on any loot tables to get you geared-up... If you really want decent gear in PoE, you need to trade. If you want decent gear in WoW, all you need to do is play the game, follow the story through its many dungeons, and gear (that you actually need) will drop for you.

In what way are prices for decent items huge?

Edit: and no, you need to trade to get decent gear in this game.

Comparatively huge, with WoW. My subscription being off for a few months, I can't go and verify the AH for exact prices, but in Cataclysm, last expansion, the best BoE items from the last raid were a few thousand gold. Badge BoE gear was even cheaper. This was something that was not hard to achieve by selling stuff from professions etc. on the AH. You could not equip but 2-3 slots with crafted or BoE gear though, the rest you needed to get it yourself.
This was a great way to help characters start their endgame gearing up, and smoothed progression a bit.

In PoE, an item I would liken to what epics were for sale in WoW is Taryn's Shiver, which is what, 10 Exalts or so?

So let's compare.

All my time playing to level 83 in PoE, I found 0 exalts. I got 3 from trading, so let's just say I have 3 Exalts/6 weeks or so (and I played PoE quite a bit...), dunno exactly how much I played. From all the trades and drops I might also have another 4-5 Exalts worth of currency.

In 6 weeks of Cata WoW, I would have farmed WAY MORE gold than enough for 3-4 BoE items off the AH, basically representing all the gearing that could be done for gold, and would have remained quite a lot additional gold as well - just from playing the game, just from levelling up my professions - and would have been set for heroic dungeons/LFR/Normal raiding, where I would have started to get my own gear, from my own drops.

3-4 items in WoW, in PoE, not having enough for one single item in 6 weeks of gameplay.

I hope I have clarified how the prices in PoE for decent stuff are huge.

Trading will be ALWAYS more cost efficient than crafting here.
Even for end game gear.
The reason why end game items are crafted is, there is low to no availability of such items on the market so players have no choice but to try to craft them. Anything below that can be get by trade easily.
The only thing that is more cost efficient than crafting is getting things via loot.
The problem here is that it's not time efficient.

The reasons why loot is not viable/does not feel rewarding in PoE are:
- currency orbs system
For every orb generated (found in loot or get via recipe) you are not given a dozen of rares in loot.
That's the downside of currency orbs concept.
Magic/rare/unique items drops have to be significantly lower (comparing to no orbs system) to accommodate influx of items generated via crafting to the market.
And since we have recipes here GGG can't just simply boost item drop rates because better drop rate of magic/rare items = more orbs = crafting still wins over looting and trading will be even better nonetheless.

- 6 separate sets of gear (or even more for weapons).
And game makes everything possible to restrict you, pigeonhole you into very narrow gear sets.
From restrictive passives to restrictive skills.

In D2 if I found a good 1h weapon I'd just use it.
In PoE if I find a good 1h weapon there's like 80 to 90% chance that it will be useless for my build.
Same goes for armors. Good armor value was good for any kind of char in D2 (granted that he met attrib requirements). In PoE 50%-83% of armor pieces are useless just because of wrong base.

That's why trading will be always the best option in PoE and loot will be the worst choice for gearing yourself (unless you are lvl several different chars simultaneously which nobody does).
Crafting is in the middle here.

see... I don't understand this argument.

Diablo 3, was a massive example of hubris and ASSHAT behavior from a dev team, and then became a shining example of "AHAHAHAHA, told you so"

We seen it coming, they walked into the PR NIGHTMARE that the game was, and a blind drugged monkey could have seen it, but hopefully it wasn't in vain and lessons were learned, but no one is holding their breath for that.

GGG is NOWHERE near as bad, you're not seeing (or at least i haven't seen) the "aren't you thankful" level of crappy decisions, and self assured rubbish?

I'm all for pushing a dev team to look at their mistakes and irrational crap, but GGG don't actually currently deserve it. IMHO. They're not idiots, their drops COULD do with work in terms of rates, but it's HARDLY on the level of garbage other mmo's are on currently :/

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Hellkaiser wrote:

see... I don't understand this argument.

Diablo 3, was a massive example of hubris and ASSHAT behavior from a dev team, and then became a shining example of "AHAHAHAHA, told you so"

We seen it coming, they walked into the PR NIGHTMARE that the game was, and a blind drugged monkey could have seen it, but hopefully it wasn't in vain and lessons were learned, but no one is holding their breath for that.

GGG is NOWHERE near as bad, you're not seeing (or at least i haven't seen) the "aren't you thankful" level of crappy decisions, and self assured rubbish?

I'm all for pushing a dev team to look at their mistakes and irrational crap, but GGG don't actually currently deserve it. IMHO. They're not idiots, their drops COULD do with work in terms of rates, but it's HARDLY on the level of garbage other mmo's are on currently :/

I definitely did not agree with the topic title, but some of the content in the post that followed it rang true for me.

Want to fix the crafting/trading balance? It's fairly simple. Just significantly raise the drop rate of orbs across the board.

Will this mean that items are nominally more expensive? Yes. But it wouldn't actually be more expensive, because if you can get 10 chaos orbs in an hour and it costs that much to buy an item, it's functionally the same as if you can only get 1 chaos orb an hour and it costs 1 chaos to buy an item.

The difference is that now you have extra chaos orbs that you can use on crafting. That's how you actually get people to use their orbs on their items, you make it so it doesn't break the bank to gamble.

Basically, the only people that craft now are wealthy people who need to craft because there's nothing out there that fits what they need on the market. Get more people crafting and your currency sink will be even better.

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Hellkaiser wrote:

see... I don't understand this argument.

Diablo 3, was a massive example of hubris and ASSHAT behavior from a dev team, and then became a shining example of "AHAHAHAHA, told you so"

We seen it coming, they walked into the PR NIGHTMARE that the game was, and a blind drugged monkey could have seen it, but hopefully it wasn't in vain and lessons were learned, but no one is holding their breath for that.

GGG is NOWHERE near as bad, you're not seeing (or at least i haven't seen) the "aren't you thankful" level of crappy decisions, and self assured rubbish?

I'm all for pushing a dev team to look at their mistakes and irrational crap, but GGG don't actually currently deserve it. IMHO. They're not idiots, their drops COULD do with work in terms of rates, but it's HARDLY on the level of garbage other mmo's are on currently :/

I play both D3 and PoE currently, and I palyed both games throughout their changes

Both games went in opposite directions regarding drops. D3 started out with terrible drops pre 1.07, but they fixed a lot of the drop issues with the paragorn system + 5 stack MF/GF/EXP + increased drops + evening out the ridiculous difficulty curve on inferno (and they all did this due to community feedback)

PoE seemed to go in the opposite direction, in CB drops and difficulty curve (and hence reward ratio) was more or less "good", then when OB happened it collapsed in this area (and others, including build viability)

From what I have seen, Blizzard are faster and quicker to respond to these issues, they implemented an entire new level due to complains of persistance in builds (paragon) in quite a small amount of time.

The only saving grace that PoE has, is that it has unique and non shitty fundamentals/mechanics, where as D3 still has shit like AH/RMAH which will never be removed from the game

I think that before increasing drop rates, they should first decrease the range of stats you could get on mid-high level rares. What that would accomplish is that when you do drop a rare item, it will always be better than a lower level blue item for at least some builds. Currently, I think it's absurd that you can get +1-2 cold damage on a rare lvl50 weapon.

Another balancing thing that would need to accompany it is increase the HP of most mobs from mid to high level, it's way too easy to kill them even without investing on damage(with some builds) and it would get worse if the quality of items increase for most of the population.

And to do that, melees also need to have their survavibility with their armor increased. For exemple, attacking with melee weapons should give a bonus to physical attacks. Between a guy that is fighting with a sword against one that is trying to fire arrows in melee range, it would seem logical that the swordsman takes less damage solely due the fact that he's using a sword.

What I'm trying to say is that items drops should be changed but they also need to think about how those changes will affect gameplay.