You can complete the game and do endgame content with self-found & crafted gear. You couldn't do that in D3 in release.
This is at worst wrong and at best apples to oranges.
I played both self found, over 3k hours in D3 and over 1k so far in PoE.
First of all, we can say this is wrong, because you could complete D3 in self found gear at release, I did. At least I was fully self found and solo progressing Act 3 when the nerf hit. The only reason I hadn't done the cheese-to-Diablo was because I would rather every single possible affix combo pre Act 4 end boss was achievable first, something I was making great progress with.
Off course you can complete (or could, in D3 release) with self-found, it's all a matter of time invested. What I'm saying though is that with the amount I have played in both games, is way easier (in my experience) to equip and progress in PoE than in D3 in release (something they have been changing and fixing and are still doing). And progress with several classes and build (true, some more difficult than other) and not recurring to couple skills and tricks (lol D3 hydra LoK bug) to overcome content.
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Secondly, this is apples and oranges because in Diablo the end game was before completing the Acts, the end game, harder content than bosses, was the content before them. In PoE, you complete the Acts THEN go on to do maps.
If anything, I'd have had everything chalked up in D3 long before PoE, simply because I don't have access to everything in PoE. The end maps themselves are at the moment a myth to me (highest I've seen is 74 and right now the highest I've got is 68).
True that, it's a problem, and they have acknowledged it. I also believe accessing endgame content is too hard and have said in this same thread. But we are talking mostly about items, orbs, etc. here, not the 'map problem' (as they have said, maps, and hence levelling, are locked behind the item system to make harder the access to higher ilvl gear and make it harder to equip better gear, and that's a bad decision tieing both together).
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In any case, both require/d a HUGE time investment, for self found only. One that I'm fine with, I actually love slow progression because it eats the time I have to throw at gaming.
But that doesn't mean I'm ever happy in a progression system that favours trading over killing, looting and crafting. If not only for those with similar playstyles to myself but without the time allocation.
This problem is not going away unless you devalue all the items in the game and flood the game with items (literally). It's a matter of mathematics, there is no way around it in an online, persistent game. Buffing drops 'a bit' won't change it, trading for the gear you need is always going to be more efficient than finding/crafting it as long as you are dealing with randomness and probability.
You only rise the expectations floor in gear (which is exactly what has happened over time with D3, making it even worse to play the game to get gear, and this is whya lot of people stopped playing after the constant nerfs to difficulty, because it was pointless to play the game no matter what you find there is always something better out there). The advantage of PoE over D3 is the market visibility and easiness factor due to the no existence of an AH, but people will still check for gear to trade for and will see better rolled gear than they have, and will be more efficient to trade for that to try finding or crafting it, it is already happening and alot of people complaining about it in default league.
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Edit, thinking about it.
What you say probably appears true, to you, right now.
Because self found progression is faster in PoE than in 'vanilla' D3, to start with.
The truth, when you have put the time I have into both, is that while D3 progression slowed down in late game, PoE progression slows down too, but much, much more and quite early to a halt unless you trade.
Progression in items or in levelling? There are build out there which require very little gear to succeed at even the hardest maps (ofc if you are careful and don't play reckless). Mixing thing here, not what I'm talking about, I agree with you that map system is broken.
Well, knac84, these are the fundamental problems caused by free trade and no binding in RPGs, along with, ofc, RMT and botting.
The problem is, there are a substantial amount of people (majority or not) who prefer a free trade RPG, this includes developers, even though, imho, the downsides outweigh the benefits.
Add to that, it's impossible to come anywhere near balancing drops in a free trade economy to satisfy everyone, but is also impossible to satisfy what I would say is enough people.
Trading always will > than looting.
This is why, with the way PoE is with leagues, this game NEEDS a separate league with no trading and improved drops for self found and crafting. You still wont be able to tune the drops to please everyone within the league with different time allocations to gaming, but it will be a helluva lot closer to how it is now.
Traders carry on in a free trade economy league with drops set around trading and non-trading-self-found-crafters carry on in a separate league, the inability to trade counter balancing the higher drops and better crafting to maintain the same 'mudflation'.
yea... especially currency drops are just pathetic.
How much currency would you like to drop? I know people who farm 8+ chaos per hour (not multiboxing), is that not enough?
They are damn lucky then... I haven't seen a single chaos in the last week.
Or are you talking about people who just play the trading simulator, buy low and sell high on the trade chat, as I know people who do mainly that.
I'm not talking about pure chaos orbs, I'm talking about all currency that drops and all rare items that are vendored for alts. 20 alts = roughly above 1 chaos.
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
So you basically talk about gold farming. Alteration farm and selling trash is exacly the same thing that you do in D2 and D3. So whats the point af having whole 'no gold" thing? When in the end you will be farming gold (alterations) in easiest areas/maps in game? Just like D3.
BTW 8+ chaos per hours is high i dont think its possible on average char. You talk about ~150 alterations here.
And why everyone talks anly about farming with endgame chars? You have whole 70 levels of no dropping currency before endgame.
But honestly its all about that in the end you are still farming gold and you are trying to make bigger and bigger gold bars (bigger orbs) from trash ones.
Nerf recipes if needed, even remove them but ffs... HNS GAMES ARE NOT ABOUT PLAYING WITH VENDORS ABD SELLING CRAP. THEY ARE ABOUT FINDING INTERESTING AND VALUABLE THINGS.
If you tell me that i can farm trash rares for crappy and unrewarding vendor recipes ad nauseum i answer - i can do that in D3 with better combat and its still boring and antithesis of HnS game (for me).
I dont get this why GGG treats this game so much like WOW clone (the same error that Blizzard make with D3).
Last edited by KarraKurri#7943 on Apr 13, 2013, 6:56:05 PM
How the hell is this game a WoW clone in any shape or form?!?
It has gnomes (I saw one).
I suppose Vaal might be a gnome in disguise, these guys are techy, you never know :)
Nat Pagle? :) Props to you, TheAnuhart! These things will always make me smile. Blizz knows to design NPCs.
Back to the WoW/PoE being a clone topic:
Just to clear a misunderstanding some people see to have about WoW in this topic...
WoW progress is hardly so based on trading as suggested. There is a very limited number of items you could get for you build through trading, the vast majority of gear is "self-found", from quests, dungeons, heroics, raids... Yes, you'd still get 1-2 crafted items if you have money, and 2-3 BoE drops if you have even more money, but your end-game itemisation is based on (what is "self-found" in PoE...) drops 90%+, and spending on gear before the endgame is foolish. Also, WoW prices are not even remotely so exorbitant for decent gear as in PoE, as you know, the AH self-regulates.
Now, compare this to PoE, where self-found gear is 90% bad or incomplete and in needing of additional "crafting". Where trading is not streamlined and makes you use external sites and posting offers, without any commitment to the auction... Where the prices for decent items are huge... Where you cannot rely on any loot tables to get you geared-up... If you really want decent gear in PoE, you need to trade. If you want decent gear in WoW, all you need to do is play the game, follow the story through its many dungeons, and gear (that you actually need) will drop for you.
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Last edited by Undon3#5633 on Apr 13, 2013, 7:30:11 PM
How the hell is this game a WoW clone in any shape or form?!?
It has gnomes (I saw one).
I suppose Vaal might be a gnome in disguise, these guys are techy, you never know :)
Nat Pagle? :) Props to you, TheAnuhart! These things will always make me smile. Blizz knows to design NPCs.
Back to the WoW/PoE being a clone topic:
Just to clear a misunderstanding some people see to have about WoW in this topic...
WoW progress is hardly so based on trading as suggested. There is a very limited number of items you could get for you build through trading, the vast majority of gear is "self-found", from quests, dungeons, heroics, raids... Yes, you'd still get 1-2 crafted items if you have money, and 2-3 BoE drops if you have even more money, but your end-game itemisation is based on (what is "self-found" in PoE...) drops 90%+, and spending on gear before the endgame is foolish. Also, WoW prices are not even remotely so exorbitant for decent gear as in PoE, as you know, the AH self-regulates.
Now, compare this to PoE, where self-found gear is 90% bad or incomplete and in needing of additional "crafting". Where trading is not streamlined and makes you use external sites and posting offers, without any commitment to the auction... Where the prices for decent items are huge... Where you cannot rely on any loot tables to get you geared-up... If you really want decent gear in PoE, you need to trade. If you want decent gear in WoW, all you need to do is play the game, follow the story through its many dungeons, and gear (that you actually need) will drop for you.
In what way are prices for decent items huge?
Edit: and no, you need to trade to get decent gear in this game.
Last edited by SL4Y3R#7487 on Apr 13, 2013, 8:48:20 PM
I think the point about D2 and actually finding set and unique items in a low level playthrough is really valid. I recognize that some people do find useful low level uniques - but I'm on my 12th or so alt and maybe only half of them found a unique before level 40. And of those only 2 actually found something useful to *any* of the alts I was/am working on.
I also agree with the comment about mid-level/game and sockets. Many times I've been unable to get a decent armor upgrade not only because so much junk drops, but also because I'm using a 4 (or even 3!) link chest say, and how many orbs does it take to get a 3 or 4 link? A lot. Generally more than I have (very casual player here - still have yet to a see a GMP or an exalted orb drop, just started doing maps and I've been here since the end of closed beta).
Suggestions:
*Skew the linkage of sockets more heavily towards 3 links in the ilevel 30+ range. 4s should be slightly more common as well (especially on rares). This should include using the slot influencing orbs. So it's no easier to get 5s or 6s, but 1s & 2s are significantly less common.
*More low level "junk" uniques and up the drop frequency for them. These items shouldn't have much trade value so there's no incentive to hoard them (say, very little use above level 30, but very useful early game) I'd prefer low level sets, but I don't recall if sets were coming to this game or not. I realize this may not work well with races (races never run at times I can attend, so no useful experience there).
