Harvest Implementation against Expansion Philosophy (10 Craft Cap)

All of this could be actually avoided by making items that you harvest crafted soul bound. We just cant have a lot of harvest encounters because people trade their crafts around rather than using them for their own items ( like it was actually intended ).

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innervation wrote:

Spoiler

"

Teigo wrote:

If misunderstood, which I dont think they are, then GGG is doing a bad job at explaining them. As this is no issue in any other game I know of.

What other games take the time to explain any of their decisions at all at the level of GGG's dev manifestos (or Chris on Baeclast podcast)? I've seen very few developers willing to pull back the curtain and get into justifying why they do what they do from a player psychology standpoint.

There have been lots of discussions over the years of what it means for items to have weight, why player progression should have a timeline/framework/schedule, and what auction houses mean for a game like this.

They have slowly budged on where they draw the line on this stuff over the years, and I anticipate a bit more budging as time carries us closer to PoE2. We all have our own lines on where we would like to see these things.

"

Teigo wrote:

But the core issue of this post is the HArvest Cap its limiting the power of the mechanic itself.
Which, its pretty obviously does not do.
It makes it cumbersome and annoying to deal with.
And that way way more for the "lower" "average" "non-1%" etc.
As the rich and "in the know" aka experienced players (who like to minmax and post that on reddit) just go and buy the crafts. Completly ignoring the set limit the cumbersome natur is supposed to be.

Its all wrong!

(I took some creative liberties in editing this part of the quote)

I agree with Snorkle that their implementation of Harvest is designed to slow all of us down. I don't think GGG care who is making the items, just so long as X aren't put into the economy as a whole before Y date.

I agree with you and some of the others that I don't think they knew what our outcome would look like - with the top end of crafters really not being hampered much at all compared to Harvest, while casual players are producing basically 0 of the type of items GGG are trying to time gate from the economy.

That's why I hold out hope that they will iterate on the core Harvest implementation at least one more time.

"

Teigo wrote:

Harvest wasnt added instantly as is back then as it was providing to much power in to short of a time in the endgame.
What did GGG do to adress that?
Make it annoying and rare and cumbersome to manage for those who would profit in an average QoL sense from it (getting better gear easier but not anything crazy) while providing those who want to sqeeuz every 0.1% more damage out of there gear with an absolut easy to achive crafting system.

I couldn't remember what their reasoning was for delaying Harvest implementation, so I went back and looked it up.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2924277

To my mind there are three reasons there, and I think the issue you point out, Tiego, is the least important.

1. The Harvest mechanic also creates some database issues in terms of the amount of data being stored. This is a non-trivial technical problem we would need to resolve before allowing it to exist long-term.

2. The standard method of adding mechanics to core gameplay where they gain a 10% chance to appear in maps also doesn't really work for Harvest, as it would mean you would only make growth progress in your Sacred Grove every ten maps which would be dissatisfying and slow.

3. At the top end of gameplay, Harvest has made it too easy to gain very powerful items that previously required a lot more work and investment to acquire. This was acceptable for a temporary challenge league but poses problems for the long-term health of Path of Exile's item economy if allowed to remain in its current state.

So I know they started with number 3 as their number 1, but I look at it like this:

The database stuff maters the most. If it doesn't 'technically' work, then it doesn't work at all, no matter how much they nail the rest of the execution. The second point is the design of building and interacting with the garden. They're right on that the old way could never be re-integrated into a system in which it was going to be rarely seen. Short of making the whole enterprise an itemized experience like Heist contracts, I think they did the absolute best they could with what we have now - prefabricated gardens that are generally high quality and preserve some elements of player choice.

So that is technical (database) execution and concept integration. That leaves us with the final thing. Balancing the crafts relative to the economy. This would have been the hardest thing for August 2020 GGG to project, because we've only ever had one Harvest league. I hope they aren't happy with exactly where we landed in this regard, but this could be a case of me being blind to an element of what we talked about at the beginning of this post and the last. Maybe they've got the numbers and psychological principles on their side here and this is the best spot for the mechanic for engagement and economic health.

IF ITEM WEIGHT IS IMPORTANT to TencentGGG why the @%$* don't they actually MAKE THE BEST MODS DROP ONLY ON ITEMS AND MAKE THEM AVAILABLE ONLY FOR THE PLAYER THAT DROPPED THEM???

That would instantly address item "weight" and duping them an unlimited time for everyone and their dog to enjoy "perfect", non-personal, weightless items as they are - they could rework the Mirror of Kalandra to get an infused version via an epically difficult end game encounter that allows 1 and I do mean only 1 copy that would work for anyone else, while the regular mirror would work to duplicate rings and 1H for the initial owner (with the "epic" mods being activated, mirrors would still copy the item as they currently do)...

Problem solved, especially if they actually make such "enhanced awaken T0 mods" available ONLY ON DROPPED RARES from the most difficult end game encounters - heck, everyone, AND I DO MEAN EVERYONE, will then PICK UP THEIR RARES and IDENTIFY THEM...

A lot of problems would be then instantly solved.

Then they could simply adjust Harvest interactions, preferably by making THE PERFECT VALUES RARER, and not keeping "walled" the useful mod combinations - they actually comprehend that and work on "improving loot" to have more "weight" and be more scarce...

I'm confident their stats regarding the memeconomy and their undecided stance about it - if they want trade to be possible, it should be ENCOURAGED and FACILITATED FOR CONSUMABLES (as they decided to make content "consumable"), and it should be discouraged while also enjoyable for items - can't have the cake while you eat it aka either you regulate the economy IN A PROPER WAY, or you get THE CURRENT EXPERIENCE OF THE WORST MARKET "SIMULATOR"...

Having mods LOCKED to initial item owner would resolve a large series of problems, by making items PERSONAL, and KEEPING PLAYERS INVESTED IN THEIR CHARACTERS, while also allowing trades to happen, but you would then have to forfeit "some" goodies as you're not "ENTITLED" to it - you didn't drop said item, you get most BUT NOT ALL THE BENEFITS...

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

"

innervation wrote:

Spoiler

"

Teigo wrote:

If misunderstood, which I dont think they are, then GGG is doing a bad job at explaining them. As this is no issue in any other game I know of.

What other games take the time to explain any of their decisions at all at the level of GGG's dev manifestos (or Chris on Baeclast podcast)? I've seen very few developers willing to pull back the curtain and get into justifying why they do what they do from a player psychology standpoint.

There have been lots of discussions over the years of what it means for items to have weight, why player progression should have a timeline/framework/schedule, and what auction houses mean for a game like this.

They have slowly budged on where they draw the line on this stuff over the years, and I anticipate a bit more budging as time carries us closer to PoE2. We all have our own lines on where we would like to see these things.

"

Teigo wrote:

But the core issue of this post is the HArvest Cap its limiting the power of the mechanic itself.
Which, its pretty obviously does not do.
It makes it cumbersome and annoying to deal with.
And that way way more for the "lower" "average" "non-1%" etc.
As the rich and "in the know" aka experienced players (who like to minmax and post that on reddit) just go and buy the crafts. Completly ignoring the set limit the cumbersome natur is supposed to be.

Its all wrong!

(I took some creative liberties in editing this part of the quote)

I agree with Snorkle that their implementation of Harvest is designed to slow all of us down. I don't think GGG care who is making the items, just so long as X aren't put into the economy as a whole before Y date.

I agree with you and some of the others that I don't think they knew what our outcome would look like - with the top end of crafters really not being hampered much at all compared to Harvest, while casual players are producing basically 0 of the type of items GGG are trying to time gate from the economy.

That's why I hold out hope that they will iterate on the core Harvest implementation at least one more time.

"

Teigo wrote:

Harvest wasnt added instantly as is back then as it was providing to much power in to short of a time in the endgame.
What did GGG do to adress that?
Make it annoying and rare and cumbersome to manage for those who would profit in an average QoL sense from it (getting better gear easier but not anything crazy) while providing those who want to sqeeuz every 0.1% more damage out of there gear with an absolut easy to achive crafting system.

I couldn't remember what their reasoning was for delaying Harvest implementation, so I went back and looked it up.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2924277

To my mind there are three reasons there, and I think the issue you point out, Tiego, is the least important.

1. The Harvest mechanic also creates some database issues in terms of the amount of data being stored. This is a non-trivial technical problem we would need to resolve before allowing it to exist long-term.

2. The standard method of adding mechanics to core gameplay where they gain a 10% chance to appear in maps also doesn't really work for Harvest, as it would mean you would only make growth progress in your Sacred Grove every ten maps which would be dissatisfying and slow.

3. At the top end of gameplay, Harvest has made it too easy to gain very powerful items that previously required a lot more work and investment to acquire. This was acceptable for a temporary challenge league but poses problems for the long-term health of Path of Exile's item economy if allowed to remain in its current state.

So I know they started with number 3 as their number 1, but I look at it like this:

The database stuff maters the most. If it doesn't 'technically' work, then it doesn't work at all, no matter how much they nail the rest of the execution. The second point is the design of building and interacting with the garden. They're right on that the old way could never be re-integrated into a system in which it was going to be rarely seen. Short of making the whole enterprise an itemized experience like Heist contracts, I think they did the absolute best they could with what we have now - prefabricated gardens that are generally high quality and preserve some elements of player choice.

So that is technical (database) execution and concept integration. That leaves us with the final thing. Balancing the crafts relative to the economy. This would have been the hardest thing for August 2020 GGG to project, because we've only ever had one Harvest league. I hope they aren't happy with exactly where we landed in this regard, but this could be a case of me being blind to an element of what we talked about at the beginning of this post and the last. Maybe they've got the numbers and psychological principles on their side here and this is the best spot for the mechanic for engagement and economic health.

IF ITEM WEIGHT IS IMPORTANT to TencentGGG why the @%$* don't they actually MAKE THE BEST MODS DROP ONLY ON ITEMS AND MAKE THEM AVAILABLE ONLY FOR THE PLAYER THAT DROPPED THEM???

That would instantly address item "weight" and duping them an unlimited time for everyone and their dog to enjoy "perfect", non-personal, weightless items as they are - they could rework the Mirror of Kalandra to get an infused version via an epically difficult end game encounter that allows 1 and I do mean only 1 copy that would work for anyone else, while the regular mirror would work to duplicate rings and 1H for the initial owner (with the "epic" mods being activated, mirrors would still copy the item as they currently do)...

Problem solved, especially if they actually make such "enhanced awaken T0 mods" available ONLY ON DROPPED RARES from the most difficult end game encounters - heck, everyone, AND I DO MEAN EVERYONE, will then PICK UP THEIR RARES and IDENTIFY THEM...

A lot of problems would be then instantly solved.

Then they could simply adjust Harvest interactions, preferably by making THE PERFECT VALUES RARER, and not keeping "walled" the useful mod combinations - they actually comprehend that and work on "improving loot" to have more "weight" and be more scarce...

I'm confident their stats regarding the memeconomy and their undecided stance about it - if they want trade to be possible, it should be ENCOURAGED and FACILITATED FOR CONSUMABLES (as they decided to make content "consumable"), and it should be discouraged while also enjoyable for items - can't have the cake while you eat it aka either you regulate the economy IN A PROPER WAY, or you get THE CURRENT EXPERIENCE OF THE WORST MARKET "SIMULATOR"...

Having mods LOCKED to initial item owner would resolve a large series of problems, by making items PERSONAL, and KEEPING PLAYERS INVESTED IN THEIR CHARACTERS, while also allowing trades to happen, but you would then have to forfeit "some" goodies as you're not "ENTITLED" to it - you didn't drop said item, you get most BUT NOT ALL THE BENEFITS...

For this to be working they would need to overhaul the whole looting system from the ground up.
(Which im not against, to state that in the first line)

The issue without any overhaul would be even worse then what we complain about with the harvest implementation.
The Player would be forced into a playstyle where he picks up and identifies so many rares, he would not be playing the actual game anymore.
Now we complain that we are forced into engaging with Harvest. As the game forces it on us with the laughable low cap of 10 saveable crafts.

If we would reduce it to only the hardest encounters, we would have extremly gated content. Way more then now. Content gating is a growing issue with poe too.

And, in the current System, Soulbounding those Best in Slot Rares would remove all weight to top it of. As currently, without beeing able to sell there stuff, its not worth much. As in, you can boost about it on Reddit, but nobody will care cause they would need rng to happen opon such an item themself. While now, at least the sense of "i can achive that too! at least buy it maybe if i just farm enough" is given.
Its a screwed sense, bend due to Harvest as it is right now even further, but still. Beeing able to encourage the playerbase to invest more time = more money for GGG. So not a bad thing for them.

While I think the general idea is good, PoE would need to change a lot first in order for it to work.

The worst part would be that the Player would be forced to pick up even more shit as he already is.
Just imagining picking up even half the dropped rares per map make me wanna vomit.
We would need an really good working looting system first before we can go even harder on the "pick it up, its good" mentality.
If PoE would have arived in the present allready with an working Auction House/ trading system. With an Looting Pet / Radius looting / auto pickup (walkover) or anything similiar. It could have a chance.
(It still needs those things regardless! Cumbersome DOES NOT equal worth items! Thats one of th emain points of this whole discussion)


Funny and sad part:
Current trading and missing Auction House boils down to "make it annoying and cumbersome! So people percive it as valuable!
Make them pick it up themself! It give the drop weight!"

Thats BS.
In no other game who people have an auction house or auto looting are people complaining about loot beeing worthless cause it appeared in there inventory. OR cause they could buy it with ease in an auction house.
The game would need adjusting, yes, but not much. The Economy would adjust too. We all would gain so much QoL and no longer hurting hands from to much clicking...

It the same with Harvest.
Its an false sense of balancing on shoulders of the wrong players/concepts.

GGG would just need to get down to business and rework loot. Make the loot that drops worthy, not increase the Quantity and filter the few good stuff out.

Could you imagine a PoE where a rolled map (not maxed in any form) would get you a chaos, a few augs and alts, an alc and 3-5 rares of which maybe 1 is worth keeping (or agument with crafting)?
We currently only have this due to itembloat and quantity.
Not because the looting system is working that way.
The most rares I pick up are good bases to start with. Anything below that isnt worth the time 99.99%. And even those bases are mostly worthy to pick up only cause you can then craft wíth them.

There should be a balance between Crafting and Looting. Both should be somewhere about 50/50 in power to gear a character. Or they should harmonize enough that you dont notice an big issue with it.


I think I would love that.
At least as an idea to start the overhaul.
Cause kindy anything is better as the current version that accumilated cause of growthing content and added features.
While the looting mechaninc stayed the same since what? Game launch?
At least since I play (Legacy) it didnt change. Just recently Stash affinities was the first step into better looting. At least for the sorting/managing loot after the mapping.
And this mechanic is still in its baby steps themself with the potential it could have.
But GGG is reeeeeeeeeeal slow with this kinda thing.
Its not the money maker.
It would mainly benefit long term players, who play a lot and longer in to league then most. And the big money is in launching new leagues and content to sell new MTX with the hypewave.
While I hate it beeing that way, I cant be to mad at them for it.
It sucks for the long term playerbase, but money is money i guess...

Anyways.
That you can push maps to the point that you arent even remotly able to pick up all that dropped...
And im not talking about even crazy juiced ones! THOSE are even crazier...!
Is cool in videos and compilations to look and laught at. And running some of those maps yourself is fun too, yes! But looting them?
Even just looting the "worthy" stuff takes long and is boring and cumbersome and the loop starts anew.




(went a bit off topic there. Sorry.)