Harvest Implementation against Expansion Philosophy (10 Craft Cap)
" theyre not making it harder to craft on the bottom end. the top players could always either craft perfect items or mirror other peoples perfect crafts. they had perfect gear before harvest and still have perfect gear after harvest. the middle and bottom end players can craft 10x better stuff than before using self found harvests. what the top, and were not even talking 1%, were talking the top 0.01% or less, is largely irrelevant. they would always do more than the average player and you end up having to let them do problematic stuff in order for the average joe to be able to do fun but balanced stuff. the average joe has amazing access to crafting now, theres no world where the average joe has the same access to anything as an elite player, even in ssf the elite player will play 10x as many hours and play them 10x as efficiently to end up with 100x more stuff. the argument about high end 0.00000001% players vs normal players is a dead end. you got to judge this from the capability of the average joe isolated from what the top are doing, for the average joe this mechanic is a massive crafting power increase. in my mind the only argument is "is harvest currently powerful but fine for the average joe or too powerful?". any talk of making it more powerful is fundamentally absurd. " ive read your post, i just think youre wrong and you are in denial about the fact you are asking for it to be buffed. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :) Last edited by Snorkle_uk#0761 on Feb 2, 2021, 9:53:29 AM
|
|
" Not at all but glad you are easily amused. |
|
" Demonstrably false. First 1000 PDPS one-hander happened because of Harvest crafting. 623 ES (or something along those lines) helmet happened because of Harvest crafting. No way to make those 6T1 (and sometimes multi-influenced) items without Harvest crafting, just not worth it. Check out Demi's video on his mirror-tier weapon, how much he spent on it, and whether it was all T1 rolls. And yeah, Harvest does make it easier to craft for the mid-tier player, but the impact is a lot higher at the top end. Just read the forums, top-end players are complaining about the fact that crafting has become too easy for them. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit. Last edited by Char1983#2680 on Feb 2, 2021, 10:41:41 AM
|
|
" Then argue your case instead of my apparent mental denial you can sense. That way we could have an constructive discussion instead. At least we can agree that we both think about the other that he is wrong. huray! --------------------------- I wonder what will happen next league. Cause im gonna bet its not gonna stay they way it is. As Harvest is way to powerfull (cause they didnt adjust shit/screwed the whole implementation (hence this postetc)etc). Just what direction GGG will take nobody knows. Not even them lol. Im just annoyed beyond wanting to keep playing that they insist again and again on making the game more cumbersome and not going for more QoL and an overall more positive gaming experience. Trading/Auction House Crafting/Deterministic Crafting Less clicking/looting overhaul To just name 3 of the big issues they either fuck up, ignore, or have some real screwed (and outdated) philosophy on. |
|
" Not coincidentally those are three of the most maligned (because they are misunderstood) features of the game. They exist in their current state for specific reasons - they aren't randomly bad, or bad because GGG suck at their jobs. I'm going to leave it there for now because I'm much more interested in talking about the reddit post that you keep treating as gospel. I happened upon it shortly after it was written and here are my points of contention: 1. Innervation's Law states that putting some jackasses name in front of the word 'Law' doesn't lend your opinions any extra credibility or authority. This modern phenomenon is an attempt by university Humanities departments to try to piggy back on the authority of the hard sciences and it is cringe as fuck. 2. The poster creates a false dichotomy (quad-chotomy?) of 4 resolutions to a 'reagent problem' in D&D. He also speaks in absolutes, like "The inappropriate powergamer figures out how to circumvent the restriction. His power remains the same." Well what about the power gamer who actually enjoyed the process of 'gaming' the GM and circumventing the restriction? The reddit post, specifically this part of it, is written from the perspective that EVERYONE who interacts with it will have the emotions that he imagines. This is fallacious. 3. "Way too much character power is tied up in gear as compared to skills and passives." This is an opinion, and in my estimation mostly wrong. We have the passive tree, gear, and skill gems as our main power engines. Gear gets power creep. Gems get power creep. Our passive tree hasn't explicitly gotten power creep in the obvious form - a higher level cap or more free skill points - but they've added A LOT to the tree (glancing blows, timeless jewel keystones, elusive, unleash, golems, impale, etc), and also the Pantheon and Ascendancies are basically power creep for the tree. In reality, our skills and passives are power creeping right along with gear, the OP of the reddit thread just refuses to admit it. He then goes on to assert a number of other things which he provides no evidence for immediately after that line. 4. "So, average people either suffer through harvest's implementation because it's so damn useful, or they avoid it and suffer FOMO or other gambling-induced psychological issues because the power-players in the community are cranking out incredibly OP gear on the trading market. Lose-Lose." Another false dichotomy. And as others here have pointed out, the power gamers have been making better gear than you and I since day 1. Also, anyone who uses the term 'gambling induced psychological issues' over a league mechanic in PoE shouldn't be taken seriously. It's a fucking craft on a piece of gear. No one is avoiding Harvest and then curling up into the fetal position in the shower crying about what power gamers are doing. Fucking christ. ~ In summary it is a well written post and he gets some things right. I happen to agree with the general sentiment found in this thread that the current iteration of Harvest isn't ideal for anyone. I think this is a function of what PoE has become in regards to trade league vs SSF vs trade league but with mostly (99.99%) solo play. I think there's an ethical version of Harvest where a player wants to use their own Harvest crafts and has no interest in buying or selling, at the most sharing/trading 1 craft a week with a close friend. I think there's an unethical (and I don't mean literally morally wrong) version of Harvest that incentivizes power gamers to spend an obnoxious amount of time not playing the game to make sure they're juicing the maximum efficiency out of every found craft. These are also the type of players who, just by virtue of Harvest being in the game, feel compelled to use it (buy crafts) to min max every gear slot. There's also a lot in between. My biggest issue remains that the most powerful items in the game (obviously now coming from Harvest crafting) should come from the most difficult content (it doesn't) and shouldn't require you to blindly hand over your items to strangers to achieve (it does, at least in the temp league environment). |
|
" If misunderstood, which I dont think they are, then GGG is doing a bad job at explaining them. As this is no issue in any other game I know of. While I absolutly love your way of analyzing (honestly, I do (out of context: Not enough people think critical about eg posts)) they are not good placed there imo. The Post makes a comparison while linking it to poe to explain an issue. And while claiming this is his opinion, not a fact, what makes this claim any different from his? I mean thats not the point of the post, nor the intent. If you find yourself in non of the explained categories of players, thats cool for you. But its not solving the issue for anybody else who is. We can keep bringing up things we believe are the core issue at large. But the core issue of this post is the HArvest Cap and how its wrong in all the places. Its contrary to there Expansion Theme. Its against mechanics they allready implementet and improved upon (Incursions/Delve Cap). And that all while claiming its limiting the power of the mechanic itself. Which, its pretty obviously does not do. It makes it cumbersome and annoying to deal with. And that way way more for the "lower" "average" "non-1%" etc. As the rich and "in the know" aka experienced players (who like to minmax and post that on reddit) just go and buy the crafts. Completly ignoring the set limit the cumbersome natur is supposed to be. Its all wrong! Harvest wasnt added instantly as is back then as it was providing to much power in to short of a time in the endgame. What did GGG do to adress that? Make it annoying and rare and cumbersome to manage for those who would profit in an average QoL sense from it (getting better gear easier but not anything crazy) while providing those who want to sqeeuz every 0.1% more damage out of there gear with an absolut easy to achive crafting system. Its a fake sense of balance on the shoulders of people who didnt needed the balancing. As they never gone for the crazy OP stuff in the first place. And SSF gets the middlefinger on top. While those milking harvest dry got a wet dream of easy mirror rafting for free. |
|
" I disagree strongly with this. I've only found 2-3 nul+aug crafts in Harvest encounters, none of which were useful for what I needed. Yes I know they only have about 5% chance to appear, but given how many people are reporting issues with Haewark Hamlet, I'm inclined to believe that picking up Harvest nodes on the Atlas isn't working as intended. I've got a great jewel I need for my summoner, or at least would be great if I could get a crit aug Harvest craft, but I strongly doubt at this point that I'm ever going to find it on my own within a reasonable time frame. The current implementation of this system requires trading, the opposite of what this league could've been, if low and mid players want to make anything good with Harvest. As it stands, it's a glorified Essence league, where you're replacing life or elemental essences with chaos/alch crafts. At least Essences are very common and you can have more than 10 of them. PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds. Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build! And the winds will cry / and many men will die / and all the waves will bow down / to the Loreley Last edited by Pizzarugi#6258 on Feb 2, 2021, 12:32:18 PM
|
|
" What other games take the time to explain any of their decisions at all at the level of GGG's dev manifestos (or Chris on Baeclast podcast)? I've seen very few developers willing to pull back the curtain and get into justifying why they do what they do from a player psychology standpoint. There have been lots of discussions over the years of what it means for items to have weight, why player progression should have a timeline/framework/schedule, and what auction houses mean for a game like this. They have slowly budged on where they draw the line on this stuff over the years, and I anticipate a bit more budging as time carries us closer to PoE2. We all have our own lines on where we would like to see these things. " (I took some creative liberties in editing this part of the quote) I agree with Snorkle that their implementation of Harvest is designed to slow all of us down. I don't think GGG care who is making the items, just so long as X aren't put into the economy as a whole before Y date. I agree with you and some of the others that I don't think they knew what our outcome would look like - with the top end of crafters really not being hampered much at all compared to Harvest, while casual players are producing basically 0 of the type of items GGG are trying to time gate from the economy. That's why I hold out hope that they will iterate on the core Harvest implementation at least one more time. " I couldn't remember what their reasoning was for delaying Harvest implementation, so I went back and looked it up. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2924277 To my mind there are three reasons there, and I think the issue you point out, Tiego, is the least important. 1. The Harvest mechanic also creates some database issues in terms of the amount of data being stored. This is a non-trivial technical problem we would need to resolve before allowing it to exist long-term. 2. The standard method of adding mechanics to core gameplay where they gain a 10% chance to appear in maps also doesn't really work for Harvest, as it would mean you would only make growth progress in your Sacred Grove every ten maps which would be dissatisfying and slow. 3. At the top end of gameplay, Harvest has made it too easy to gain very powerful items that previously required a lot more work and investment to acquire. This was acceptable for a temporary challenge league but poses problems for the long-term health of Path of Exile's item economy if allowed to remain in its current state. So I know they started with number 3 as their number 1, but I look at it like this: The database stuff maters the most. If it doesn't 'technically' work, then it doesn't work at all, no matter how much they nail the rest of the execution. The second point is the design of building and interacting with the garden. They're right on that the old way could never be re-integrated into a system in which it was going to be rarely seen. Short of making the whole enterprise an itemized experience like Heist contracts, I think they did the absolute best they could with what we have now - prefabricated gardens that are generally high quality and preserve some elements of player choice. So that is technical (database) execution and concept integration. That leaves us with the final thing. Balancing the crafts relative to the economy. This would have been the hardest thing for August 2020 GGG to project, because we've only ever had one Harvest league. I hope they aren't happy with exactly where we landed in this regard, but this could be a case of me being blind to an element of what we talked about at the beginning of this post and the last. Maybe they've got the numbers and psychological principles on their side here and this is the best spot for the mechanic for engagement and economic health. |
|
" They obviously solved 1), because there are no more seeds. Storing more crafts would be trivial in terms of database, they would just have to increase the limit. 50 crafts per account isn't exactly a lot. There is a finite (and rather limited) number of crafts, all they would have to do if it becomes a problem is store the number of crafts of that type that are available. That is one vector that has to be saved. Really, can't be hard. They obviously solved 2), not in a super elegant way (sometimes the two plots are virtually identical), but in general, I'd say their solution is fine. They didn't solve 3) at all. Weird. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
|
|
" well uve obviously not been target farming them then, if you were target farming them youd have found more than that, or youve not been playing much? i havent traded them at all and ive made loads of stuff, it doesnt require trading at all. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
|
|
