Why nerf dual wielding? Whats the point of it now?

"

Jackel6672 wrote:

People want to have their cake and eat it to. I remember a time when people were complaining about dual wield being too weak, and had no reason to go for it over sword and board.

The tree has had many iterations since then. Dual wield is as strong as it has ever been. No need for the bonus anymore. At endgame that 20% more is not going to be the crux that breaks your build. There are so many more multipliers its ridiculous.

2 handed will still not be the most played, its not zoom zoom enough for most players.

every hp or dmg % very important for ssf hc. 20% less dmg result in so much less life and more risk.

They not only nerfed dual wield dmg. They removed phys. dmg reduction and reduced dmg taken from passives.. This is not good for 2h too. That passive with 20% less dmg taken if dont get hit recently have a cost 40% less eva if dont get hit recently, you need really big eva/dodge to use it or mass block.
Armour doubled only for less than 50% reduction. 20% less dmg taken if dont get hit recently, fortify and at top 35% reduction from Vaal MS look not that bad against phys. But elemental dmg can be rip how dangerous with new Vaal MS.


They even removed +10 mana on passive at start of duelist.
Fortify effect still not nerfed. What is GGG target next? :D

2-H in theory should be viable on juggernaut, But fortify not stack with him anymore. And almost no dmg from ascendancy. Maybe scion with jugg/xxx still good to go with 2h? Or even any class that can have some block and clear speed on staff viable?
Problem of poe hc endgame if build is weak/slow, comes when you played something a lot better before. What feel of progress it give you, what reason to play again? You need emotions, new challenge. Some nerfs, then some buffs and hidden nerfs. Thousand pages of changes. After removing stat sticks they buffed dual wield block. Even sword passives at right side have lot of block now(instead of attack speed before).

"

voroncov5050 wrote:

"

Jackel6672 wrote:

People want to have their cake and eat it to. I remember a time when people were complaining about dual wield being too weak, and had no reason to go for it over sword and board.

The tree has had many iterations since then. Dual wield is as strong as it has ever been. No need for the bonus anymore. At endgame that 20% more is not going to be the crux that breaks your build. There are so many more multipliers its ridiculous.

2 handed will still not be the most played, its not zoom zoom enough for most players.

every hp or dmg % very important for ssf hc. 20% less dmg result in so much less life and more risk.

They not only nerfed dual wield dmg. They removed phys. dmg reduction and reduced dmg taken from passives.. This is not good for 2h too. That passive with 20% less dmg taken if dont get hit recently have a cost 40% less eva if dont get hit recently, you need really big eva/dodge to use it or mass block.
Armour doubled only for less than 50% reduction. 20% less dmg taken if dont get hit recently, fortify and at top 35% reduction from Vaal MS look not that bad against phys. But elemental dmg can be rip how dangerous with new Vaal MS.


They even removed +10 mana on passive at start of duelist.
Fortify effect still not nerfed. What is GGG target next? :D

2-H in theory should be viable on juggernaut, But fortify not stack with him anymore. And almost no dmg from ascendancy. Maybe scion with jugg/xxx still good to go with 2h? Or even any class that can have some block and clear speed on staff viable?
Problem of poe hc endgame if build is weak/slow, comes when you played something a lot better before. What feel of progress it give you, what reason to play again? You need emotions, new challenge. Some nerfs, then some buffs and hidden nerfs. Thousand pages of changes. After removing stat sticks they buffed dual wield block. Even sword passives at right side have lot of block now(instead of attack speed before).

This game isn't balanced around SSF or HC and certainly not around both, never was, never will. You decide to put all those handicaps on yourself, now deal with them. GGG can't balance their game about your masochism.

"

SeCKSEgai wrote:

"

Jackel6672 wrote:

People want to have their cake and eat it to. I remember a time when people were complaining about dual wield being too weak, and had no reason to go for it over sword and board.

The tree has had many iterations since then. Dual wield is as strong as it has ever been. No need for the bonus anymore. At endgame that 20% more is not going to be the crux that breaks your build. There are so many more multipliers its ridiculous.

2 handed will still not be the most played, its not zoom zoom enough for most players.

Dual-wield is not as strong as it's ever been, someone missed the whole stat stick era... And there have been multiple buffs to monsters since then...

My hollow palm cycloner was my primary boss killer during delirium, despite the fact that I had a herald stacker with gear that valued more than double his own.

Health buffs have definitely pushed the minimum damage threshold higher, especially with fights like Sirus at the forefront.

Cyclone was not a "zoom-zoom" build, pretty slow with a limited clear given its radius was reduced at the end of legion (amongst other things).

You see, the thing is, when they nerf things, it's never JUST one thing. Not only did my hollow palm cycloner lose that 20% MORE multiplier, which in reality are limited (since most increases are "increases" and thus additive), he lost 2 split personality jewels which provided well over 100 str and 100 dex that were further scaled.

Then you take compensating for the loss of stun or other ascedency changes depending on class...

But even worse, the now legacy starforge that has the old increased physical on the higher damage base essentially does less than his delirium counterpart. Tree changes also further reduced the further output along with defenses. Vaal Molten Shell lost most of its protective use and was the primary protection against heavy spike damage.

When they really want to force the player in a different direction, they undermine multiple aspects - which in turn affect any other builds that use even a partial aspect.

I played during stat sticks. We are still as strong as back then. Back then we didn't have nearly as many MORE multipliers on skills. Let alone the added damage on many of the skills now. We have the option of having 5 supports all with MORE modifiers now, aswell as having useful side effects.

The only loss you having is the stat scaling. The other items having been basically put on the tree. There is now an opportunity cost to them.

"

Jackel6672 wrote:

I played during stat sticks. We are still as strong as back then. Back then we didn't have nearly as many MORE multipliers on skills. Let alone the added damage on many of the skills now. We have the option of having 5 supports all with MORE modifiers now, aswell as having useful side effects.

The only loss you having is the stat scaling. The other items having been basically put on the tree. There is now an opportunity cost to them.

Given the fact that there are only 11 achievements (out of 122) and a level 6 on an account created in 2012, I can't help but wonder if someone is trying to justify the changes like a dev failing to grasp the differences between increase and more interaction, particularly when you throw in gain.

For the entire time I've been a part of this community, melee had the most complaints, and even this latest patch continues that tradition. Back in abyss, stat sticks were practically the only thing giving melee life, aside from maybe molten strike jugs.

Once those were gutted, it wasn't until cyclone in legion that melee was practical again, especially as molten strike has been nerfed multiple times even after it fell out of popular usage.

But seriously, how is it now an "opportunity cost"? Crit chance/multiplier gets reduced, physical reduction gets reduced/removed, vaal molten shell loses its ability to protect against the dangers created by buffing the monsters.... My hollow palm died over 200 times in delirium. Sure, mostly it was laggy/slideshow performance but the bottom line was he couldn't be played mindlessly and there was always a fear of potential death. My herald stacker cost more than twice as much and was a less effective boss killer but had the most survivability of anything I had ever played. No one was surprised that was gutted.

The monsters have been buffed several times now, and cyclone has been hit by several nerfs. It took over for molten strike and has now been given the molten strike treatment. All that effort to "re-balance" two-hands and in reality it simply became a warcry re-work.

My hollow palm impale cycloner wasn't some godlike character and still failed a8 sirus twice. You could blame it on poor fight mechanics (which would be true) but ultimately he wasn't some over-powered juggernaut of destruction. He lost a lot more than that 20% more multiplier and he's nowhere near what he was in delirium. He could barely do t16 100% delirium guardian maps as it was, one of the few times where my herald stacker setup actually had a leg up because she wouldn't be burning portals just trying to get to the boss.

People didn't get upset over JUST a 20% more multiplier, it's EVERYTHING that was tacked on top of that.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

This game isn't balanced around SSF or HC and certainly not around both, never was, never will. You decide to put all those handicaps on yourself, now deal with them. GGG can't balance their game about your masochism.

Always played hc. This is full optional. But ssf is important. If you NEED trade to play game with fun that is not good for everyone most of time.
(Dont forget there if private leagues(introduced by ggg) with a lot stronger more handicaps, than ssf or that nerf, but for everyone, that is just right.)

While bladestorm still viable in 3.11 for dual wield, lot of skills that was not meta or competitive get heavy nerfs. With no buffs they actually need or reason, like chain hook. If i even want to be competitive(sarkasm !) as melee in races with dual wield maybe i still have chance with bladestorm now. It stales with intimidating cry. But sand part is a really slow in move, cant buff its speed on tree or gear. Scale with aoe amazing, but lost a melee feeling then. Just like caster, big aoe casts, not a fun in you want stay melee.
Blood part does great damage(with cry), fast and feels melee but you do not get gladiator challenger charges from pack kills in blood stance, only if hit rares/unique.

Also before level when you get bladestorm in races you need skill that can work like frost bomb to be competitive with those who have it. One use - onslaught and run to next pack. Not cry 1 cry 2 hit 3 times pack dead go next pack do it again do area 15 minutes. Meta is 1 minute now.


History don't lie.
Let's see truth about 3.9 to compare nerf crimes.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2687379/page/1#p22588268
Posted by
benjaminbona
on Dec 11, 2019, 3:56:14 AM

"

F for Melee
If you're gonna be playing melee in 3.9

Us veterans feel bad for you and want to offer you our sympathy

My feedback is that this patch included some of the dumbest nerf's I've seen in the history of POE (I've been here since Beta)

I've never seen something like this that had absolutely zero reason to support it or to justify the decision

Its just plain stupid

1. Nerf multi-mod
2. Nerf to 2h
3. Impale nerf
4. Nerf to Pointblank

If you are thinking about playing melee in 3.9

GGG wants you to know

They dont care about you :)

GGG tries to say in interviews that they dont try to create forced metas to sell mtx etc or force most of the community onto 1 build type

But we can see the truth, its exactly what they are doing lol

Why would you randomly nerf melee for any other reason other than to discourage people from playing it in 3.9

Was melee broken? Uh no lol

Give me a break!

Under 10-5% of the community was playing melee in 3.8

Balance team showing their true colors

If they introduce season pass that let me play in league with good tested skill/class ballance, all skills viable and fun races every week/two i appreciate it a lot more that vusual effects i do not care and free to play.

Funny, dual wield is fine :)

"

voroncov5050 wrote:

every hp or dmg % very important for ssf hc. 20% less dmg result in so much less life and more risk.

*eyeroll*

Oh please.

"

voroncov5050 wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

This game isn't balanced around SSF or HC and certainly not around both, never was, never will. You decide to put all those handicaps on yourself, now deal with them. GGG can't balance their game about your masochism.

Always played hc. This is full optional. But ssf is important. If you NEED trade to play game with fun that is not good for everyone most of time.
(Dont forget there if private leagues(introduced by ggg) with a lot stronger more handicaps, than ssf or that nerf, but for everyone, that is just right.)

While bladestorm still viable in 3.11 for dual wield, lot of skills that was not meta or competitive get heavy nerfs. With no buffs they actually need or reason, like chain hook. If i even want to be competitive(sarkasm !) as melee in races with dual wield maybe i still have chance with bladestorm now. It stales with intimidating cry. But sand part is a really slow in move, cant buff its speed on tree or gear. Scale with aoe amazing, but lost a melee feeling then. Just like caster, big aoe casts, not a fun in you want stay melee.
Blood part does great damage(with cry), fast and feels melee but you do not get gladiator challenger charges from pack kills in blood stance, only if hit rares/unique.

Also before level when you get bladestorm in races you need skill that can work like frost bomb to be competitive with those who have it. One use - onslaught and run to next pack. Not cry 1 cry 2 hit 3 times pack dead go next pack do it again do area 15 minutes. Meta is 1 minute now.


History don't lie.
Let's see truth about 3.9 to compare nerf crimes.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2687379/page/1#p22588268
Posted by
benjaminbona
on Dec 11, 2019, 3:56:14 AM

"

F for Melee
If you're gonna be playing melee in 3.9

Us veterans feel bad for you and want to offer you our sympathy

My feedback is that this patch included some of the dumbest nerf's I've seen in the history of POE (I've been here since Beta)

I've never seen something like this that had absolutely zero reason to support it or to justify the decision

Its just plain stupid

1. Nerf multi-mod
2. Nerf to 2h
3. Impale nerf
4. Nerf to Pointblank

If you are thinking about playing melee in 3.9

GGG wants you to know

They dont care about you :)

GGG tries to say in interviews that they dont try to create forced metas to sell mtx etc or force most of the community onto 1 build type

But we can see the truth, its exactly what they are doing lol

Why would you randomly nerf melee for any other reason other than to discourage people from playing it in 3.9

Was melee broken? Uh no lol

Give me a break!

Under 10-5% of the community was playing melee in 3.8

Balance team showing their true colors

If they introduce season pass that let me play in league with good tested skill/class ballance, all skills viable and fun races every week/two i appreciate it a lot more that vusual effects i do not care and free to play.

Again, this game was designed with trade as a major design pillar. The added SSF as sort of a medal for those who didn't trade either but the game is not balanced
around it and never will be.

Melee will always have a hard time to be competitive in races because it's a lot easier during the early game to just improve your damage with gem levels instead of being weapon depended. But here again, the game isn't designed for playstyles to compete against each other, races are just a bonus that's been added for fun, just like HC and SSF, they aren't balanced around.

That being said, i'd be hard pressed to find a melee skill that isn't viable. You can literally beat the game up to AL8 Sirus and Uber Elder with 10C unique weapons and any skill gem you like. It's just a matter of knowing how to build properly. A skill not showing on POE Ninja doesn't define viability. It just shows the popularity for the 0,0001% of players the feel the urge to do that mindless grind. And since that grind is mindless (and takes a hell of a lot of time) it's fairly easy to see why they gravitate towards certain type of skills which is usually braind dead, overpowered one button gameplay type of skills. Right now it's VD Necro, next league after it got massacred there will be something else.

If you want to quote someone to proof a point you might want to pick someone with any sort of credibility. Not a guy who randomly pops up every few months to make rant topics.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

"

voroncov5050 wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

This game isn't balanced around SSF or HC and certainly not around both, never was, never will. You decide to put all those handicaps on yourself, now deal with them. GGG can't balance their game about your masochism.

Always played hc. This is full optional. But ssf is important. If you NEED trade to play game with fun that is not good for everyone most of time.
(Dont forget there if private leagues(introduced by ggg) with a lot stronger more handicaps, than ssf or that nerf, but for everyone, that is just right.)

While bladestorm still viable in 3.11 for dual wield, lot of skills that was not meta or competitive get heavy nerfs. With no buffs they actually need or reason, like chain hook. If i even want to be competitive(sarkasm !) as melee in races with dual wield maybe i still have chance with bladestorm now. It stales with intimidating cry. But sand part is a really slow in move, cant buff its speed on tree or gear. Scale with aoe amazing, but lost a melee feeling then. Just like caster, big aoe casts, not a fun in you want stay melee.
Blood part does great damage(with cry), fast and feels melee but you do not get gladiator challenger charges from pack kills in blood stance, only if hit rares/unique.

Also before level when you get bladestorm in races you need skill that can work like frost bomb to be competitive with those who have it. One use - onslaught and run to next pack. Not cry 1 cry 2 hit 3 times pack dead go next pack do it again do area 15 minutes. Meta is 1 minute now.


History don't lie.
Let's see truth about 3.9 to compare nerf crimes.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2687379/page/1#p22588268
Posted by
benjaminbona
on Dec 11, 2019, 3:56:14 AM

"

F for Melee
If you're gonna be playing melee in 3.9

Us veterans feel bad for you and want to offer you our sympathy

My feedback is that this patch included some of the dumbest nerf's I've seen in the history of POE (I've been here since Beta)

I've never seen something like this that had absolutely zero reason to support it or to justify the decision

Its just plain stupid

1. Nerf multi-mod
2. Nerf to 2h
3. Impale nerf
4. Nerf to Pointblank

If you are thinking about playing melee in 3.9

GGG wants you to know

They dont care about you :)

GGG tries to say in interviews that they dont try to create forced metas to sell mtx etc or force most of the community onto 1 build type

But we can see the truth, its exactly what they are doing lol

Why would you randomly nerf melee for any other reason other than to discourage people from playing it in 3.9

Was melee broken? Uh no lol

Give me a break!

Under 10-5% of the community was playing melee in 3.8

Balance team showing their true colors

If they introduce season pass that let me play in league with good tested skill/class ballance, all skills viable and fun races every week/two i appreciate it a lot more that vusual effects i do not care and free to play.

Again, this game was designed with trade as a major design pillar. The added SSF as sort of a medal for those who didn't trade either but the game is not balanced
around it and never will be.

Melee will always have a hard time to be competitive in races because it's a lot easier during the early game to just improve your damage with gem levels instead of being weapon depended. But here again, the game isn't designed for playstyles to compete against each other, races are just a bonus that's been added for fun, just like HC and SSF, they aren't balanced around.

That being said, i'd be hard pressed to find a melee skill that isn't viable. You can literally beat the game up to AL8 Sirus and Uber Elder with 10C unique weapons and any skill gem you like. It's just a matter of knowing how to build properly. A skill not showing on POE Ninja doesn't define viability. It just shows the popularity for the 0,0001% of players the feel the urge to do that mindless grind. And since that grind is mindless (and takes a hell of a lot of time) it's fairly easy to see why they gravitate towards certain type of skills which is usually braind dead, overpowered one button gameplay type of skills. Right now it's VD Necro, next league after it got massacred there will be something else.

If you want to quote someone to proof a point you might want to pick someone with any sort of credibility. Not a guy who randomly pops up every few months to make rant topics.

Attacking the person isn't a counter argument

"

Again, this game was designed with trade as a major design pillar. The added SSF as sort of a medal for those who didn't trade either but the game is not balanced
around it and never will be.

I always felt that it wasn't entirely accurate that the game is designed 100% for trade. I mean, we're playing an SSF-focused league now (to the point where one of its major design flaws is that it has no compatibility with party play). One of the things that set PoE apart from D3 so many years ago was that it was more friendly towards actually playing the game as opposed to D3's much greater focus on making the AH necessary.

Despite that I would say Melee tends to receive very anti-SSF changes for some reason, like the Dual Strike jewel change this league or the removal of flat on gems that makes Melee more gear dependent.