Why nerf dual wielding? Whats the point of it now?

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

When you're looking at over 50 maps for just a single cycle of all the conquerors, does anyone want to spend over 5 minutes fighting one boss?

Sorry to jump in as i'm somewhat lost in you guys's discussion here but just to cherry pick this line, personally I don't like major gates on content but I absolutely like 5 minutes fighting a boss with the right mechanics.

Getting to a boss you worked hard to spawn then instantly deleting it feels very anticlimactic to me, the fight itself is supposed to be part of the reward and I can't help but feel the PoE players at large have lost that over the years with the boss just being seen as a means to an end.

Also 3s boss kills is pretty much why boss drops are weighted to be absolute garbage :/

Actually I'm not in disagreement with you.

Uber Elder remains my favorite fight, and the previous atlas it did feel like a culmination of effort where even the fight itself was the reward.

Conquerors don't feel like a reward in comparison to me, just a time sink to drag out the big boss battle - only the big boss isn't even fun to fight.

At least in shaper the time sink between phases makes sense and helps serve the purpose of refilling flask charges. Having to wait in the distance for storms to clear so you can continue is pretty anticlimatic, as is the first two phases (with Sirus).

You say Palm Cyclone wasn't op, I've seen a fair share of comments stating the opposite, I don't know which one is true and it doesn't really matter anyways.

I can't tell you how to have fun with your weakened cyclone build, that's something you have to find out for yourself.
All I can tell you is that I am having plenty of fun with builds that have less than half the dps of your current build. And I can tell you that I can do all the timed content with those builds, something that shouldn't be possible if the timed contents were designed with your builds DPS and higher in mind.
And I can also tell you that most of my dual wield builds looked a lot weaker in POB after that patch hit, they had lost 30+% of their damage. Then I redesigned them with all the new tools we were given and suddenly some were 30% stronger than before or at least back to where they were before. I can't say if the same can be done with your build but it was the case for most of mine (my starforge slayer is excluded from this because he got a straight out buff).

You say the lower you go the stronger the effect of nerfs, yet despite me having 7 different melee chars, all of which are below yours in terms of dps I don't feel the nerfs at all. In fact, it's been mostly buffs for me. And I dare say that 95% of the player base won't even notice any of this because it's happening on a gear level they will never reach anyway.

Most of my characters from previous leagues can do a t1 incursion - But at the opposite end at t16 map mods largely dictate whether they can complete it successfully.

Pretty much every character at level range with gear I have can do the original breachstones, but only a handful can properly clear pure. Doing a Pure Tul in Delirium that hollow palm barely made it before timing out, even though the boss fight itself was relatively tame in comparison.

Given the value of the pure breachstones, I highly doubt you're counting that as "all content". I know I'm not burning through a pure chayula unless I want to run a really expensive test as I already ran several 5 emblem matches intentionally choosing not to look up their value.

If you're only going off tooltip then the numbers will be skewed. Hell, even through Pob Community, its easy to inflate/deflate your numbers depending on your selections in configuration. The original Pob hasn't seen proper updates much since its creator has been busy with PoE itself.

Since you don't play league - try a few delirium simulacrums now that it's core. You'll then see why the bar has been set higher, because 100% delirium is harder than that once you get to the t14-16 range.

Just because the league is over doesn't mean it doesn't count if its core now.

Forget about t16s, I remember posting about doing a t1 100% delirium map on like day 2 or whatever and people were laughing that I thought that was hard or something.. little did anyone know that even t1 mobs were like 10x tankier than even a normal t16 mob. And then there's the simulacrum where you need at least a million dps to even have a non-zero chance at killing kosis.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

When you're looking at over 50 maps for just a single cycle of all the conquerors, does anyone want to spend over 5 minutes fighting one boss?

Sorry to jump in as i'm somewhat lost in you guys's discussion here but just to cherry pick this line, personally I don't like major gates on content but I absolutely like 5 minutes fighting a boss with the right mechanics.

Getting to a boss you worked hard to spawn then instantly deleting it feels very anticlimactic to me, the fight itself is supposed to be part of the reward and I can't help but feel the PoE players at large have lost that over the years with the boss just being seen as a means to an end.

Also 3s boss kills is pretty much why boss drops are weighted to be absolute garbage :/

Actually I'm not in disagreement with you.

Uber Elder remains my favorite fight, and the previous atlas it did feel like a culmination of effort where even the fight itself was the reward.

Conquerors don't feel like a reward in comparison to me, just a time sink to drag out the big boss battle - only the big boss isn't even fun to fight.

At least in shaper the time sink between phases makes sense and helps serve the purpose of refilling flask charges. Having to wait in the distance for storms to clear so you can continue is pretty anticlimatic, as is the first two phases (with Sirus).

Yep i'm onboard with this, I actually think Shaper, Elder and UE are their best boss designs by far, I failed a like 20 minute attempt at UE on HC with an earthquake Jugg in one league and it was the most enjoyable boss experience I've had.

Meanwhile once I hit 36 in Delirium HC I went to do A8 Sirus and got knockbacked into a storm about 30s after he actually created the storms while jumping back to him -_-, I did actually think he was OK at the end of metamorph.

Sigh, I miss Shaper.

I am not talking about T1 incursions or normal breachstones, I haven't run any of those in months. It's one of the reasons I don't play league, I like playing endgame content, starting all over, even to make a twink, sucks hard.
I play exclusively tier 14 - 16 and if I run breach stones then it's only pure ones. I'll admit that I haven't tried pure breach stones with every single one of my chars, they are pretty rare still and I hate trading so every single one I ever ran was self found/made, but I am fairly sure most of them can do it and ironically I am most worried about my casters not being able to handle it due to ripping. My melees are fine...

As for 100% delirium, I can't really comment on that yet. I didn't play the league and I've seen like 5 mirrors since patch only one of which dropped an orb so it will take some time until I can make a 100% delirium. Maybe I'll fail, maybe not. In fact i'd actually appreciate failing as that means there is still stuff left for me to do. At the moment AL8 Sirus and Uber Elder/Atziri are like the only things left that provide some sort of challenge.

I also dont understand why they had to nerf duel wielding.

It wasn't meta or Op.

I guess they just wanted to promote 2 handed weapons.

Instead of buffing the 2handed weapons more they decide to nerf dual wielding.

The funny part is now players dont want to play 2 handed weapons with slam skills because is enoying to play.

My suggestion for the developers of Grinding Gear Games is to roll back the existing nerf on dual wielding in the same way it was.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I am not talking about T1 incursions or normal breachstones, I haven't run any of those in months. It's one of the reasons I don't play league, I like playing endgame content, starting all over, even to make a twink, sucks hard.
I play exclusively tier 14 - 16 and if I run breach stones then it's only pure ones. I'll admit that I haven't tried pure breach stones with every single one of my chars, they are pretty rare still and I hate trading so every single one I ever ran was self found/made, but I am fairly sure most of them can do it and ironically I am most worried about my casters not being able to handle it due to ripping. My melees are fine...

As for 100% delirium, I can't really comment on that yet. I didn't play the league and I've seen like 5 mirrors since patch only one of which dropped an orb so it will take some time until I can make a 100% delirium. Maybe I'll fail, maybe not. In fact i'd actually appreciate failing as that means there is still stuff left for me to do. At the moment AL8 Sirus and Uber Elder/Atziri are like the only things left that provide some sort of challenge.

Now we get to the heart of the matter. Pure breachstones are rare and valuable,(well Tul and Chayula pures) are to the point that as a solo player it makes more sense to sell them than run it solo given the market value.

BUT, if you were to run them, particularly a chayula - then failure is basically like throwing 2-3ex (not sure std value) away. Given that my hollow palm barely beat the tul, I didn't bother attempting the pure chayulas.

Truth be told one of the deadliest aspects of 100% delirium wasn't just the beefed up health and damage, but poor performance on weaker machines.

There is one potential salvage for my hollow palm, but it would basically mean reverting away from my split personality optimized tree and hoping to have enough stats and points to go crit swapping the astramentis for rigwald's curse, but that's essentially a different build completely, as well as a weaker version of what it was before anyway.

One of the issues in delirium was that orbs were rarer than they should have been, so given the low chance to see even a delirium mirror in core...

But seriously, try a simulacrum with your best build. That pretty much set the bar for expectations since that was "the boss fight" for the league as aul and company did for delve. I only failed to finish 2 or 3, and over 750 waves total. I made it through some deathless, but most completions meant at least one death, again largely to performance issues.

And I'm guessing they didn't remove the 300 splinter req, so that one you're better off just buying, at least the first one.

EDIT - oh and just to make a point - there's a reason that most folks who ran a hollow palm ditched them for herald stackers. I kept mine available because I wanted to insulate my scion from a potential death from conquerors (nearly guaranteed by sirus), but he also had a little bit better single target. Considering gem upgrades cost over 15 and 65 ex each, I was hoping to find them while finishing that conqueror grind.

That's really not my realm. Trading away content that i can enjoy myself? Just because i might fail and don't get the loot (which is worthless most of the time anyway)? No, thanks, i rather run the stuff.
Just ran a pure xoph breachstone that i had lying around with my double strike champion, just to see if he could handle it. And guess what, he finished the thing with 30 seconds left. I actually had to slow down a few times for the breach to catch up :/
And xoph didn't drop the freaking amulet... again. Must have run like 10 of his breachstones by now and still no amulet...

I'll definetely try out simulacrum as soon as i get the first 300 splinters together, but given that i don't trade, it might take a few months...

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yamface wrote:

Forget about t16s, I remember posting about doing a t1 100% delirium map on like day 2 or whatever and people were laughing that I thought that was hard or something.. little did anyone know that even t1 mobs were like 10x tankier than even a normal t16 mob. And then there's the simulacrum where you need at least a million dps to even have a non-zero chance at killing kosis.

I'm surprised I missed this the other day.

Yeah, one thing you know when anyone says stuff is "OP" and brings up anything outside of the herald stacker, they didn't actually experience all of delirium if at all.

I remember juicing up a tier 1 beach with everything I could throw at it and 100% delirium from currency orbs. Remember almost dying a few times in the middle of breaches, mob density so thick I would get heavy stutter.
Only 1 exalt out of that, but plenty of lesser.

And I remember the fear of death from Kosis for sure. One on one he was pretty manageable if you had the damage, but he usually showed up when the packs were thick and the performance was stuttering. While the herald stack did end up trivializing the fight against him specifically, he still won even against her if I entered freeze frame mode.