Perhaps stop saying PoE is not pay to win game?
" This is a dishonest argument. This has already been addressed in this thread, and shouldn't have to be repeated : the term "Pay to win" has never been contingent on an actual win state. Very few pay to win games actually have such a win state. The fact that you actually try to alter the word's meaning by cutting it up doesn't display you as an honest person to discuss this with. " There have been people considering the game Pay to win almost since the beginning of the game. Being able to sell your good items at their actual value (rather than having to sell them for cheap through the disastrous trade channels) in order to have the currency to acquire the almost-perfect items you need has always been a big advantage in the game. Though at the time being able to profit the extra stash space required more savviness than it does now. As for races to kill bosses, it's usually a team effort, with the lead players plowing forward, while other players take care of the trade part of things so that they can continue advancing with all the resources they need. In those cases, the ones to pay may be others than the ones winning. Basically, they pay so that somebody else wins. |
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Just as a point to note.
The public premium stash tab was introduced on March 2, 2016. Before that the only thing you could do was change the name and color. It was just a fancy regular tab. The fact is that there has now been 4 years worth of complaining and negativity from unhappy ̶f̶2̶p̶ forum users vs their company image. As a business this should have been brought up in a meeting at the very least once a year to see if it might do harm to the numbers by making a useless graph about it. However it is most likely never discussed in the slightest and just plain left as it is not broken and is functional. Luckily someone is paid to moderate these forums and some of the ideas discussed and points raised might even make it to a internal discussion on how this can be used as a clever way to grow the client base and make the company look better. I think that it would be irrelevant to fix it at this point in time, but i believe that it should be addressed by the time 4.0/poe2 is launched or they will have missed a great opportunity that can and should be exploited. |
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" I literally used the definition from merium webster to show that it is a pay to win game. How is that dishonest in any way? |
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Quick search on Google found these definitions
pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. "Pay to Win". PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters). “Pay to win” essentially means that you can progress further, faster, through a game or win more often or more quickly by spending real-world money on various things relating to a game's monetization system. According to the more specific GGG definition, stash tabs are not p2w. Essentially this is GGG's house and they get to make the house rules. What can be agreed upon is that the mtx stash tabs are the closest that PoE comes to p2w? Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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" Don't cut the expression. It has a specific meaning as an expression, which isn't the addition of its word separately. If you want to discuss its meaning, find its definition as a whole expression. When you are cutting it into "pay", "to" and "win" you are doing exactly what is being reproached to people that say that there's no "winning" in Path of Exile. |
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Ok guys, let`s do an integrity test. I will describe a bunch of scenarios, if you think one of them is not p2w, justify why it`s not when compared to the others.
1- Selling inventory/stash size; 2- Selling personalized stashes; 3- selling an auto-leveling to level 70 or 100; 4- Selling a pet that automatically picks loot; 5- Selling the ability to list items for trade; 6- Selling BIS gear that can only be obtained trough lootboxes; 7- Selling restricted bosses that can only be accessed with Micro-transactions; 8- Selling character slots; 9- Selling exp boosts; 10- Selling currency for real money; ======================================================================== Personally i consider all of them p2w. But some are more p2w than others: Mild p2w: 1,2 and 8. Since they indeed improve how much you enjoy the game by a huge margin while giving slight advantages over non-paying users. standard p2w: 3,4,5,9. These are the ones that provide a lot of advantages over those that don`t pay but can at least be bypassed by playing a lot more than the whale. disgusting p2w: 6,7,10. These are the ones that makes online games pointless, since no matter how much you play, you will never be better than the fat whale. Last edited by Mortyx#1049 on Jun 13, 2020, 7:58:55 PM
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" Very well said, and I might refer back to this exact post in the future when we have this thread again next week. " Well that's the problem right there: selling players access to the trade system isn't "almost" pay to win, it IS pay to win. You are at a disadvantage if you cannot quickly sell your items at full market value, period. Why do you think SSF is harder than trade leagues? I don't think GGG is anywhere close to the toxic/disgusting side of the pw2 equation, but it's disingenuous and dangerous to give them a 100% free pass here just because things could have been implemented worse. People keep trying to say that it doesn't count as p2w unless its done to the Fifa Sports degree, but that's NOT WHAT PAY TO WIN MEANS. Pay to win means ANY advantage gained through monetary investment, and because you cannot earn premium tabs in-game, and they ARE an advantage, POE IS a pay to win game. |
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" It can be reasonably argued that PoE is not p2w according to the first definition. I'm not really trying to defend that interpretation but I'm just saying. Otherwise I agree with what you say. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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" You are at cross purposes. nutchman really isn't arguing dishonestly but rather via etymology, which can be dangerous (since word meanings and phrase meanings evolve independently) but in this case is not: S/he defined "win" as being "successful or victorious." The word victorious implies a specific win condition, but the word successful certainly does not. Does having more than four stash tabs empower you to be more successful at playing this game according to any reasonable definition of "playing this game?" Oh fuck yes. " Calling PoE "P2P with a free demo" is a legitimate argument, but remember that PoE can be either F2P/P2W OR P2P. F2P and P2W are not exclusive categories (in fact they are usually closely linked, for reasons I explained above), but F2P and P2P are. GGG markets their game as F2P. So we can say something like, "GGG isn't lying about PoE not being pay2win but they are still lying," but I have to say this isn't the most compelling defense of GGG's honesty that I've ever seen. " Your qualifier "unfair" speaks volumes. Does it provide an advantage or does it not? As ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate already pointed out, saying that wine isn't alcoholic because it's weaker than vodka indicates a problem with logic. " Indeed, this criticism goes all the way back to GGG's beginnings. And again, it is very closely tied with marketing. Back in the day supporters felt like they were giving to charity (we obviously weren't, but it's fun to pretend), and who wants to give money to a dishonest charity? " This is a disingenuous argument, because the only reasonable conclusion to this set of premises is that pay2win games do not exist. After all, we all play games in different ways and for different reasons, right? Chris Roberts famously used this argument in his defense of real-money purchasable ships in Star Citizen. " Stand on the statement if you like, but since pay4convenience is one of the most popular forms of pay2win (as was already pointed out above, no less), you are not standing on particularly solid ground. " Rather than obsessing over definitions (also known as "appealing to authority"), which so often is a dead end in discussions, wouldn't it be more productive for us to consider why pay2win is objectionable, and then ask whether those objections hold true for PoE? The primary objection I see in this context (and I invite others to disagree or to embellish) is that pay2win affects development decisions in ways that are detrimental to all players. The two most obvious ones are balance and QoL: 1) If GGG outright sold power for cash (HP booster packs, or powerful weapons), they would also have to adjust monster power in order to keep the game fun (read: marketable) to the players paying the money, leading to an arms race of sorts. GGG does not do this. 2) If GGG outright sold stash space for cash, then they also have a business incentive to give reasons for players to require more stash space or else suffer a very unpleasant gaming experience. GGG does do this. So let's ask the real question: Does GGG's reliance upon stash tab sales (their most popular MTX, by their own admission) affect development decisions, such as currency stack sizes, loot systems, or shard bloat? No one knows for sure, but it sure as hell looks that way. Wash your hands, Exile!
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" Yes, that is exactly what you can say and exactly why this entire debate is utterly pointless. Paint still not dry btw. :( Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done.
Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. |
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