Perhaps stop saying PoE is not pay to win game?
|
Chris : PoE is pay-to-win.
Me : How do I win? Chris : Do all these - 1) Complete the story to A10 2) Kill Uber Izaro 3) Kill Uber Atziri 4) Complete the Atlas 5) Kill all the Conquerors and Sirus The Awakener 6) Delve to Depth 1000+ 7) Collect all the of Beasts for your Menagerie 8) Complete your Syndicate Board 9) Complete all Prophecies 10) Collect all Divination Cards 11) Make Alva Happy 12) Complete 40 Challenges 13) Level all Class to 100 14) Craft the best Item possible for all your Level 100 characters 15) Collect All Uniques 16) Journal your adventures in Wreaclast include screenshots Me : Wut? I can't do all that. Is there any other way? Chris : Buy stash tabs. Me : How many? Chris : Ask those guys. - Before I get roasted, I agree with Xavathos. Be safe exiles. TYHF. :) - Filthy Casual Scrub. "Belief is the strongest metal of them all." - Izaro Last edited by element274#1105 on Jun 12, 2020, 7:53:11 PM
|
|
" This here is the weird part of the discussion. "Pay to win" has never been a term where the definition of "winning" mattered (because then, almost no game would be "pay to win", as a lot of the games using that model don't actually have a win state), it simply designates a game where paying advantages you. Having had a Currency stash tab on my previous account, I know it was definitely an easy way to make currency, in non-SSF leagues, so at the very least in those PoE is pay-to-win. So, when we see people arguing that it is not pay-to-win because PoE doesn't have a win state, or because the definition of winning is unclear, it feels like they are being disingenuous, even though some of them may simply not understand the term. That being said, almost nobody is saying that PoE should have absolutely no pay to win elements. A lot of the discussion is about how much pay to win is ok in the game. As you can see in those threads, (almost) nobody is saying that everyone should have access to an infinite amount of free stash tabs of any kind. A lot of the flack is given about ways they feel that GGG is being dishonest in their "never pay to win" marketing. The clearest example of the issue is premium tabs. I was there when GGG "upgraded" them to trade tabs, and I remember that they had identified that there would be a problem before releasing the change, but had failed to identify what the actual problem was. They had failed to recognize (and still do) that those tabs would significantly advantage players that bought them, reasoning themselves out of the issue through the fact that third-party tools and other, more tedious methods existed to do the same, even though most of the player base didn't use those methods. The issue would be solved easily by upgrading one stash tab (or even half of one) to a premium at some tardy point in the game (once per account), and almost nobody would have any issue with them selling premium tabs (they could even have upgraded all premium tabs as trade tabs as a one-of operation, then sold them separately, and probably nobody would have complained). Last edited by Angry_Casual#1628 on Jun 12, 2020, 8:41:50 PM
|
|
" Giving a free premium tab to every new account would also be a bad call in a business sense. This would create a new avenue for bot users to manipulate the system even easier. Completing the achievement of at least 2 or 3 on the list should grant a upgrade (book) to turn one stash tab into a premium one. no charge as you have completed the f2p part of the game a.k.a. the story or tutorial as many call it. You are now allowed to wield the power that this grants. Now go buy some more stash tabs to show the developers you enjoyed the game. At this point i would feel comfortable to call this a f2p game. In its current state i would also call it payforconvenience completing 4 and 5 could grant you a map tab upgrade as it fits thematically with the endgame. This is a very good discussion. Thank you Turtledove |
|
|
Spoiler
" I see, but they can't give away premium stash tabs to everyone for a rather simple reason; bots. If GGG gave every account a free premium stash tab, just to be able to conclude a subjective discussion on whether or not the game is pay to win, the game would pay the price by making that much easier for bots (free accounts) to make the currency that they sell to real people, you know, the actual pay to win in POE. The kind that only happens outside the rules and control (mostly, unfortunately) of GGG. I think they're still trying to minimise the problem of bots and RMT, when last I checked, not make it worse. Meanwhile, there are people here having a pointless debate on whether something entirely subjective is objectively true or not. Please excuse me while I go watch some paint dry. Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done. Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. Last edited by Xavathos#5130 on Jun 12, 2020, 8:58:48 PM
|
|
|
I don't think this would be about giving the tab easily. It could require getting 32 or 35 challenges in any league, or something along those lines, just to make sure it's not freely given to an army of bots.
PS : I don't think the reason they're not giving this freely is the bots, I think it's a marketing decision as it would probably reduce the amount they sell. Bots is just a convenient reason to give to people that inquire as to why they don't give one for free. Last edited by Angry_Casual#1628 on Jun 12, 2020, 9:09:46 PM
|
|
|
Saying that Path of Exile is not pay to win is a lot like saying a particularly nice handcrafted vodka isn't alcoholic. Just because it doesn't burn on its way down like Skol doesn't mean it ain't booze.
Premium stash tabs be pay to win as fuck. They're just smooth about it. Smoothness matters, and it matters a lot, but it's a separate category from how p2w it is. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jun 12, 2020, 9:37:01 PM
|
|
|
For a brand new player it's definitely not p2w. You can easily get 30+ hours of gaming to Act10 or more if you play different builds. The 4 free tabs are enough for such players.
It's only when you get to maps that you get a lot of items worth storing. Then I would agree you need more tabs but you already got so much for free by then. |
|
|
it shall turn into war on words - just like all previous posts on this subject. dilluting the issue into smallest possible definitions, nuances and other PR techniques
people 'for' this game will defend it to no end, people 'against' already left or know that arguing with the 'for' crowd is a waste of time personally, when asked about this game i tell people 'it is fine but you need to spend around XX dollars, before that it is just a demo, playable - but still a demo and purchase on your part is EXPECTED' as long as trade is - in reality - gated behind premium tab, this wont change. trading without premium tabs is abhorrent and in no way constitutes as a full product (and i wonder if it is still possible at all). sure, SSF is a thing but.. get real i know legends about pro-players completing a challenge of ssf 100 with 4 tabs. i know. but to avoid hypocrisy i would like to hear about these from people who play that way, not from people with 40 tabs who look down to others and claim that 4 is enough FOR THEM " then it is not f2p - it is 'morally induced purchase'. you SHOULD pay to not feel bad about yourself? if it is advertised as free there is NO obligation to pay a dime. sadly, people fall for this 'saints giving away for free, i need to repay them' trick far too often. thys 'f2p' is such a popular business model Last edited by sidtherat#1310 on Jun 13, 2020, 5:24:31 AM
|
|
" Every F2P title in the world gives you reasons to want to buy things in its store, that's literally the business model you're describing, further bolstering that POE is in fact F2P. RuneScape is F2P and their F2P version has more than 95% of its content stripped compared to the membership version. It's still F2P. POE doesn't have any of that, you can play every single bit of content as much as you want entirely for free and many have. A game can be F2P and P2W at the same time though. In fact, in most P2W cases, it is. That's what the topic is suggesting, not that whether or not it's F2P. Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done. Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more. 'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league. Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave. Last edited by Xavathos#5130 on Jun 13, 2020, 7:30:42 AM
|
|
|
Of course PoE is a F2P game. Calling it pay2win doesn't challenge that one bit: The worst examples of pay2win games are ALL F2P, because that is the best way to attract
" Because pay2remove_inconvenience (a more accurate term than pay4convenience) is one of the oldest and most reliable ways for pay2win business models to succeed. To say that this particular business practice is not pay2win is to ignore and/or deny the pay2win nature of almost all otherwise-acknowledged pay2win games. The obvious counter to my argument is to establish that the game has always been painless to play with only 4 stash tabs, and remains so in 2020. That GGG doesn't "create the problem and sell the solution." Please feel free to do so. " A forgiving and compassionate interpretation. Nicely done. So-called win states ("Hurr durr, what do you win???") have almost never been connected to pay2win gameplay elements, nor to criticisms against such. As usual, the proof is in the pudding: Most pay2win games do not have win states at all, because a clear-cut win state would end the gravy train provided by the player/victim. It is antithetical to the business model from the outset. " This statement is about as useful as any other red herring. Literally every judgment made in this thread is subjective. "Lying to your customers is wrong" is a 100% subjective statement; would you attack an argument using that as a premise? Subjective statements are no less valid than objective statements, and I'd wager that a large proportion of the things you hold to be near-absolute truths are ultimately subjective. *** By the way, unlike most people arguing about this topic, I actually have spent a league trying to play with only 4 tabs, as an experiment. I gave up after a week or two, but not before doing my best to deal with GGG's ridiculously low currency stack sizes and should-be-stackable-but-arent items. Furthermore, I did it in SSF, which arguably should be easier to deal with than in trade leagues. I assure you, it was, nonetheless, hell. I suggest others do the same, especially those who insist that more than the default four tabs does not present any kind of gameplay advantage (literally the only aspect of pay2win's definition that is widely accepted) over those with only four. Wash your hands, Exile!
|
|
