Perhaps stop saying PoE is not pay to win game?

I'll suggest pay2whatever_you_choose_to_justify_your_transaction_to_others. That seems wholesome. That's still P2W in short, so everyone's happy.
Carry on my waypoint son, there'll be peace when maps are done.
Lay your portal gem to rest, don't you die no more.

'Cause it's a bitter sweet symphony this league.
Try to make maps meet, you're a slave to the meta, then you leave.
"
Xavathos wrote:
I feel discussing this is pointless. "Winning" is high subjective and as Deathfairy has pointed out, there is no agreed upon definition of pay to win.

When GGG promised us the game wouldn't turn into pay to win, it was clear what they meant and they have kept their word on that. That is all that matters on this topic.


That is not what they did.

They introduced 13 new leagues, since the day I started playing this game, 3 years ago. The amount of space you have, remains the same.

This game was always pay to win. Now it is pay to play.

I was recommending this game to every one I know...

This league I will pass.
"
gibbousmoon wrote:


So-called win states ("Hurr durr, what do you win???") have almost never been connected to pay2win gameplay elements, nor to criticisms against such.

As usual, the proof is in the pudding: Most pay2win games do not have win states at all, because a clear-cut win state would end the gravy train provided by the player/victim. It is antithetical to the business model from the outset.




But they have a lot of ladder and pvp who push you into competition.

That doesn't exist in POE.

Buy the stash tab once and then ? buy more to "win" more ? nope
"
sidtherat wrote:

"
SaiyanZ wrote:
Then I would agree you need more tabs but you already got so much for free by then.


then it is not f2p - it is 'morally induced purchase'. you SHOULD pay to not feel bad about yourself? if it is advertised as free there is NO obligation to pay a dime. sadly, people fall for this 'saints giving away for free, i need to repay them' trick far too often. thys 'f2p' is such a popular business model


Like I said, you still can get over 30 hours just playing a few builds through the story. That's more free game time than most AAA games these days.

Think of the main game as free and mapping as the additional DLC where you need to buy stash tabs for convenience.
"
gibbousmoon wrote:
Of course PoE is a F2P game. Calling it pay2win doesn't challenge that one bit: The worst examples of pay2win games are ALL F2P, because that is the best way to attract suckers players.

"
ArtCrusade wrote:
It is unreasonable to burden the franchise with a term like p2w which is understood differently by many, but most certainly connects the game with a negative stigma. Why have a discussion between only p2w and f2p? Why not use a term like pay4convenience?


Because pay2remove_inconvenience (a more accurate term than pay4convenience) is one of the oldest and most reliable ways for pay2win business models to succeed. To say that this particular business practice is not pay2win is to ignore and/or deny the pay2win nature of almost all otherwise-acknowledged pay2win games.

The obvious counter to my argument is to establish that the game has always been painless to play with only 4 stash tabs, and remains so in 2020. That GGG doesn't "create the problem and sell the solution." Please feel free to do so.

"
Angry_Casual wrote:
So, when we see people arguing that it is not pay-to-win because PoE doesn't have a win state, or because the definition of winning is unclear, it feels like they are being disingenuous, even though some of them may simply not understand the term.


A forgiving and compassionate interpretation. Nicely done.

So-called win states ("Hurr durr, what do you win???") have almost never been connected to pay2win gameplay elements, nor to criticisms against such.

As usual, the proof is in the pudding: Most pay2win games do not have win states at all, because a clear-cut win state would end the gravy train provided by the player/victim. It is antithetical to the business model from the outset.

"
Xavathos wrote:
Meanwhile, there are people here having a pointless debate on whether something entirely subjective is objectively true or not. Please excuse me while I go watch some paint dry.


This statement is about as useful as any other red herring. Literally every judgment made in this thread is subjective. "Lying to your customers is wrong" is a 100% subjective statement; would you attack an argument using that as a premise? Subjective statements are no less valid than objective statements, and I'd wager that a large proportion of the things you hold to be near-absolute truths are ultimately subjective.

***

By the way, unlike most people arguing about this topic, I actually have spent a league trying to play with only 4 tabs, as an experiment. I gave up after a week or two, but not before doing my best to deal with GGG's ridiculously low currency stack sizes and should-be-stackable-but-arent items. Furthermore, I did it in SSF, which arguably should be easier to deal with than in trade leagues. I assure you, it was, nonetheless, hell.

I suggest others do the same, especially those who insist that more than the default four tabs does not present any kind of gameplay advantage (literally the only aspect of pay2win's definition that is widely accepted) over those with only four.

This is a very elegant description of poe's p2w (pay to be advantaged) style.
There was a time when i was very happy with ggg's business model. Im guessing after the 10 cent acquisition the clutter has just grown and grown. Why did delirium need 20 new orbs (thats close to as many types of currency existed when i started playing in 1.1) Elder and shaper items werent enough so now we have those plus another 4 types of conqueror influences, the list goes on and on.
That is not to say i dont consider POE good value for approx $100 nzd you get pretty much what you need to play comfortably and a game as a live service.
"
TheFazzo wrote:
(...)But nobody is asking you a dime, if you want there are plenty of ways to circumvent the lack of stash space and no, this game is definitely not a pay-to-win game.


So it's pay-to-avoid-massive-intentional-inconvenience?
I'm sorry, but that's just splitting hair in order to avoid giving GGG the "Pay-to-win" label. If you gain a massive amount of time buying the proper stash space, then it's not just inconvenience.
There's nothing wrong with the game having a little bit of pay-to-win (typically, I am perfectly fine with GGG selling their Currency and other special tabs, even though the difference in inventory management speed is very important), and everyone would be OK with their marketing the game as not pay-to-win if the game wasn't intentionally made that inconvenient to make sure to sell stuff. The premium stash tab is clearly pay-to-win, and the difference with or without the proper tabs for inventory management can quickly become so noticeably inconvenient that only the most avid supporters will say there is no pay-to-win element within it.


"
Inialla wrote:
But they have a lot of ladder and pvp who push you into competition.

That doesn't exist in POE.

Buy the stash tab once and then ? buy more to "win" more ? nope


1) Some Pay-to-win games do have ladders and/or PvP to push you into competition, some don't. That's entirely independent with the game being Pay-to-win.
2) Would you like to try getting on PoE's ladder next league if you aren't already on it? Do you want help to complete a few extra challenges to get a nice looking 40 next to your name? How about trying Sarn arena one of those days? Or maybe you'd like to train to get very short labyrinth times to get the special unique jewels?
Man, I wonder if Sid ever gets tired of being right XD

Fazzo and Sayan, you're essentially saying that POE doesn't count as Pay to Win because of how much free content you get. This is a completely irrelevant point, the actual crux of the argument since page one of the thread that nobody has even attempted to debate yet:

A new player with a premium stash tab has a gameplay advantage over a new player with only standard tabs.

And no, this is not subjective, it is a fact that can be quantified: just compare any SSF ladder to the parent league ladder. If trading items wasn't an advantage, there would be no difference between how quickly players can finish their builds. The speed and efficiency with which you can trade items to other players MATTERS in Path of Exile, because it's the best way to get currency to improve your build.

That is why, even though I love Path of Exile, I cannot in honesty call it a non-pay-to-win game.

All of these arguments - that you don't pay very much for what you get, that it's not a progressive pay-to-win system whereby you win more by paying more, etc - are irrelevant nonsense. They don't matter. To use Scrotie's metaphor, you're saying that wine isn't alcoholic because it's more diluted than vodka.
"
gibbousmoon wrote:
Of course PoE is a F2P game. Calling it pay2win doesn't challenge that one bit: The worst examples of pay2win games are ALL F2P, because that is the best way to attract suckers players.
"
ArtCrusade wrote:
It is unreasonable to burden the franchise with a term like p2w which is understood differently by many, but most certainly connects the game with a negative stigma. Why have a discussion between only p2w and f2p? Why not use a term like pay4convenience?
Because pay2remove_inconvenience (a more accurate term than pay4convenience) is one of the oldest and most reliable ways for pay2win business models to succeed. To say that this particular business practice is not pay2win is to ignore and/or deny the pay2win nature of almost all otherwise-acknowledged pay2win games.

The obvious counter to my argument is to establish that the game has always been painless to play with only 4 stash tabs, and remains so in 2020. That GGG doesn't "create the problem and sell the solution." Please feel free to do so.
"
Angry_Casual wrote:
So, when we see people arguing that it is not pay-to-win because PoE doesn't have a win state, or because the definition of winning is unclear, it feels like they are being disingenuous, even though some of them may simply not understand the term.
A forgiving and compassionate interpretation. Nicely done.

So-called win states ("Hurr durr, what do you win???") have almost never been connected to pay2win gameplay elements, nor to criticisms against such.

As usual, the proof is in the pudding: Most pay2win games do not have win states at all, because a clear-cut win state would end the gravy train provided by the player/victim. It is antithetical to the business model from the outset.
"
Xavathos wrote:
Meanwhile, there are people here having a pointless debate on whether something entirely subjective is objectively true or not. Please excuse me while I go watch some paint dry.
This statement is about as useful as any other red herring. Literally every judgment made in this thread is subjective. "Lying to your customers is wrong" is a 100% subjective statement; would you attack an argument using that as a premise? Subjective statements are no less valid than objective statements, and I'd wager that a large proportion of the things you hold to be near-absolute truths are ultimately subjective.
This post is so fantastic that I don't feel like I have anything more to say.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
more currency types just forces you to play more clever and ignore more shard types as you play along.

of course you can collect all shards that drop but why?

why spend hours to collect horizon shards if you got no gilded fossils to exploit the game in the first place?
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Last edited by cronus#1461 on Jun 13, 2020, 3:24:45 PM
This type of thread keeps poppin up

Its easy to settle it like this...


Yes POE does have p2w in the form of stashes

No POE doesnt have p2w in the form of better drops, better gear, etc

No you DONT have to keep spending money to enjoy this game

Yes POE is free to try before you decide if you wanna spend money or not

Yes POE does have frequent stash tabs sales which brings the cost down

POE is a 60$ game

With 60$ of MTX you can buy ur essential stashes and be set

- Currency Tab - 6$ on sale

- Map Tab - 12$ on sale

- Premium Stash Bundle for Trading - 16.5$ on sale

- Div Stash - 4$ on sale

- Fragment Tab - 5.5$ on sale

- Delve Tab - 3$ on sale

- Essence Tab - 3$ on sale

Total Cost For All Special Stashes + Premium Stash Bundle = 50$

Leaving you with 10$ to upgrade ur regular tabs into Premium tabs - 1$ each
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beyond that you dont NEED to buy anything to enjoy POE to its fullest

New players probably dont even need all of those tabs tbh...

Either way so at most POE is a 60$ game

If you cant afford 60$, then you probably need a reality check

You need to get your priorities straight

So the word P2W is pointless when you're talking about a set price

Its important when you're letting a BRAND NEW player for information on how much the game costs if you plan on "maining" it

You can accrue stash tabs slowly over a long period of time, you dont need ALL of them upfront.

Most of the time when people are talking about P2W its games like BDO

Where people spend a few hundred dollars on pets to loot for them, a few hundred dollars on special items and b.s. convenience that gives a massive advantage

Its so pointless to argue about POE being F2P or P2P when in reality the cost of POE is equivalent to that of a regular game

And POE has much much much more content than every other regular game i've ever seen

Most 60$ games dont even compare to the longevity of POE

I've spent alot of money myself but mostly on MTX, and because I love the game

On stashes I have under 100$ spent and i've been playing since 2014

I make a few hundred exalts every league

Stashes are not convenience

Stashes are mandatory

If anyone tells you otherwise, they are delusional

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