Perhaps stop saying PoE is not pay to win game?

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

I wouldn't place trade at the very foundation of a "GGG includes pay2win elements" argument, since balance and QoL decisions affect SSF as well.

An SSF player does not have to play for very long to realize that, currency stack sizes and current state of shard bloat being what they are, playing with four stash tabs is a miserable experience for the customary (and, arguably, intended) playstyle.

SSF has changed with time, so this might be true now. I know back in the day that, unless you wanted to trade away items, 4 tabs would last you at least to a few map tiers into the endgame, which was functionally good enough. It is quite possible that shard bloat over time is making the new player P2W experience considerably less smooth, but I don't think GGG is as concerned with that new player experience as they are with giving existing players more reason to get more tabs — and that is pretty nakedly what shard bloat does.

A very long time ago indeed. Just take a look at how busy the currency and fragment tabs are for an inkling of what the experience is like now. Then remember that many of those fragments do not stack at all (WTF?!) and that most of those currencies have an absurdly low stack size of 10 or 20.

Or try it out (as I did) and see how playable the game is.

Also, remember that SSF players rely on recipes more than trade league players, which, again, requires stash space.

This is what I am talking about when I say that developers typically balance QoL around an expected level of purchases by their players. To do so and then brag about your "ethical microtransactions" and "100% free to play with no pay2win elements whatsoever" in your marketing is nothing short of cynical.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

A very long time ago indeed. Just take a look at how busy the currency and fragment tabs are for an inkling of what the experience is like now. Then remember that many of those fragments do not stack at all (WTF?!) and that most of those currencies have an absurdly low stack size of 10 or 20.

Or try it out (as I did) and see how playable the game is.

Also, remember that SSF players rely on recipes more than trade league players, which, again, requires stash space.

This is what I am talking about when I say that developers typically balance QoL around an expected level of purchases by their players. To do so and then brag about your "ethical microtransactions" and "100% free to play with no pay2win elements whatsoever" in your marketing is nothing short of cynical.

Great posts by Pirate, Scrotie, and yourself, gibbous, and I agree with probably close to 90% of what was said. I have to add that their advert of completely free and never pay to win, however, is not just cynical, it's outright deceptive and dishonest. Part of this is subjective based on how you define Mtx, so feel free to disregard that part if it bothers you.

I'd argue that they can't call the game "completely free" because mtx such as armor skins (and of course tabs) are part of the game. If any part of your game costs money, it's not completely free. It is free to play, certainly, but that is not what they advertised when I first joined in on steam back during essence league. And there is a fundamental difference between free to play and "completely free".

As to the never pay to win part, well, that's even more dishonest than the completely free part. True they don't sell xp or gear, but there's very clearly a paywall and tabs very clearly provide an advantage, even with their diminishing returns. You won't get far into maps without the need for at least a map tab becoming ever increasingly apparent, let alone the amount of currency needed to just roll for the bonus completion becoming an ever increasing stash demand as well.

That's not to say they shouldn't charge for these things, as of course they have bills to pay, and they should by all means be paid for their hard work. However, it does mean they should at the least re-word their advertisements to be more honest. If they were based here in the states, they could easily be sued for false advertisement and they would probably lose.

It seems that this is all down to the interpretation of 'pay to win'

Language is such that you can argue truth in almost any statement if you're willing to be flexible enough, but in this case you have to be careful to not make the definition too broad or it becomes functionally meaningless, eg...any game that runs better with more expensive hardware can be considered pay to win because it gives you an advantage (SSDs being a prime example)

The 'pay to win' tag originally refers to literally being able to pay money to win the game, ie. you pay to bypass content, in terms of PoE that would be buying gear or levels with real world money without having to play the game.

I would strongly argue that 'paying for convenience' or buying QoL should not be lumped in with genuine 'play to win' considering you still have to follow the same progression as everyone else, albeit more smoothly. I understand that might be a fine line in the big picture but the psychological difference in how you play the game is significant.

Stash tabs are certainly 'pay to make the game a better experience', and with the rising amount of stuff you pick up with every expansion and all the specialist tabs enabling that development there is that danger of pushing the game behind a stash tab paywall that chips away at the ethics of the monetisation.

The ethics of their marketing have never not been questionable.

They're just considerably worse now, and that's almost certainly why we see more and more of these threads as the years go by.

Too many of you are looking at this with the tainted view of having played Poe for thousands of hours and knowing all the stuff that drops and would want to stash.

It's better to look at another game which you haven't played. Let's say Diablo3. If you could download and play Diablo 3 for free, do all content but just be limited with stash size, would you not consider it free to play?

Shop stash tabs are obvious choice if you want to play PoE without any stress.

original 4 stash tabs were okay back at release dates. it was still inconvenient but good enough to start. so F2P point that the game was making had more impact.

now current stage of the game, there are simply too many things. simply over inflated.

So that F2P sales point is less of an impact compared to the orignal release.


the game should be still inconvenient without special tabs but not this degree of inconvenience.

so pretty much forced into buying more tabs. that "forced" feeling is something that professional marketers should look into and discuss. because i think it should be "encouraged" , not "forced".

"

SaiyanZ wrote:

Too many of you are looking at this with the tainted view of having played Poe for thousands of hours and knowing all the stuff that drops and would want to stash.

It's better to look at another game which you haven't played. Let's say Diablo3. If you could download and play Diablo 3 for free, do all content but just be limited with stash size, would you not consider it free to play?

I would.

Also, I do consider Path of Exile to be free to play. As do many of GGGT's critics.

"

Turtledove wrote:

In most players' opinion GGG keeps adding content to the game, that can quickly soak up the initial 4 free stash tabs.

Here's some of the kind of stuff that some of these players have said
1. I am fine with having to set-up and manage my shop manually.
2. I am fine giving up on some core mechanics of the game, because I cannot store the items required/rewarded by it.
3. I am fine with not picking up stuff, that is worth less than 4-5c/inv.space.
4. I am fine selling my stuff far bellow the market price.

I have some sympathy for the players that feel this way. Although I hasten to add that they should not expect the same experience when playing the game as people that pays cash to GGG.

First, I would say that PoE is free to play (f2p).
Second, my sympathy is that it can be argued PoE is pay to win (p2w). It all depends on what your definition of the term p2w means.

I think that it is fine and wise for GGG to create new items in the leagues that take up stash space. It keeps the game fresh and interesting. It coaxes players to buy stash tabs which supplies an important source of income for the company.

I would suggest that GGG may want to more carefully pick their wording when they claim to not be p2w? Perhaps explicitly mentioning that they offer additional stash tabs along with the statement that the game is not p2w?

So does downloading the game and playing the game till its absolute end game needs $$? I can't remember nor GGG ask anyone to pay to play their game and as far as I can remember Path of exile is not a buy to play game. So what non-sense are you saying? Its pay2win since you want to be competative and you don't want to pay nor support the company? Are you thinking with your anus? SMH these people with unbelievable sense of entitlement.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

"

SaiyanZ wrote:

Too many of you are looking at this with the tainted view of having played Poe for thousands of hours and knowing all the stuff that drops and would want to stash.

It's better to look at another game which you haven't played. Let's say Diablo3. If you could download and play Diablo 3 for free, do all content but just be limited with stash size, would you not consider it free to play?

I would.

Also, I do consider Path of Exile to be free to play. As do many of GGGT's critics.

It would be silly to suggest otherwise. But hey, some people think the earth is flat, so all bets are off.

"

iMirageX wrote:

Are you thinking with your anus?

Ah, poetry.

Your post was borderline incoherent, which was probably not your intention, but I just wanted to compliment you on this particularly brilliant insult.

One which may be turned around on you, granted, but forgive me if I steal it someday.