Exp Loss is freaking unbalanced

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Baron01 wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

It is not poor design. By definition it is good design. It is a mechanic that was put in place to serve a specific purpose. If it is properly achieving the design goals, which it is, then by definition it would be well designed. Quite simply, you don't agree with the design decision, but it is not bad design.

You are awesome in using/quoting single paragraph out of my post. Indeed it is my subjective opinion, however, I have played many games in my gamer life that did not have death penalty in form of experience loss or did not have death penalty at all, still those games were successful.

You also ignore the most apparent problem with current death penalty, its scaling that is off charts in late game.

I will reiterate again: I find death penalty in PoE in its current form to be poor design. It is poor design if death penalty is the way to prevent you from reaching lvl100 or score high in ladder races. It is poor design if a death penalty scaling get out of hand the more your progress. It is poor design when death penalty cause aggravation and frustration that eventually might lead to players leaving the game.

Again, it is not poor design, you simply don't agree with the design direction... which I can understand. I have played other games without death penalties that were fun too... completely irrelevant to POE though. I have played ARPGs very similar to PoE without death penalties and the lack of them made death completely trivial. Personally, within the entire concept of Path of Exile I feel the penalty is 100% necessary. So, I totally understand where you are coming from, but I just completely disagree. Death should hinder progress more and more as you level higher and higher. Death should prevent you from getting to level 100. You should be doing everything possible to avoid death!

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Nagisawa wrote:

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Phaeded wrote:

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Baron01 wrote:

It is poor design when death penalty cause aggravation and frustration that eventually might lead to players leaving the game.

It's not possible to design a game which appeases everyone hence some player attrition is to be expected. Sorry to hear that you think the death penalty in default league is too harsh. Please feel free to enjoy the games which you've played before and that have no death penalty or which have a death penalty you feel is appropriate. Also...I can haz u'r stuffs?

So you're willing to sacrifice 90% of the player base over a stupid mechanic because YOU'RE happy with your overpowered build? Funny stuff.

lol, you mean about 10%... The majority of people are fine with it.

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Undon3 wrote:

Why is it not enough?!?

Crux of the argument, and at least cuts through the horrific attitudes he/she was responding to.

There is MORE than enough in this game to appease the endless need for endless "grind centric" min maxing. Without level being one of those things, and I argue that's because it is directly tied into your base performance and potentially the cause of very late game builds which could work effectively despite the harder early game not working as well as they should or not being worth bothering with, we have gear gating in this to a degree though it's not that extreme, but now we've build gating because if it's gonna potentially die even in softcore, it will take longer to level... or potentially reach a ceiling gear wise...

There is so many reasons why there is no need for BOTH a flawed and RNG laden grind centric crafting and gearing system to be in place, ALONG with a "grind-tacularly" slow levelling process, both just make for a short "nintendo hard" game nostalgia trip, which becomes a long term headache later on, claiming skill outside of following the "use only whats safe and overlevel and gear content" while stacking hp and survival etc as a counter to my opinion on this is ridiculous also and I know that's where someone will try take it being a moron, it's like when folks try and claim that an under-performing class/skill/character/item is fine because "they can use it cos they're not noobs" despite actual data backing up the claim, if your achievement in level or gear NOW is undermined later on by alterations to game systems and or difficulty, then perhaps you need to rethink how you approach games. No one is proposing the slippery "WoW" slope, which we all know is a cautionary tale of bad design direction that no one thought to put the breaks on. But this game often reminds me of the reasons WHY it got so bad, because no one wants the polar opposite to wow either save for a few folks who have very "odd" underlying reasons for their stance I'd dare say.

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iamstryker wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

The only reason the death penalty exists is to artificially pad the length of this game. Any other excuse you kids bring up is just that, an excuse to make yourselves feel better about having to Korean MMO grind your way to 'the end game'.

You think its acceptable to repeatedly die and get to lvl 100? Are you advocating that their should be no death penalty at all? Because that would make the game feel really stupid.

You WILL repeatedly die. The Law of Averages says so. It will happen, whether by sloppiness, boredom or just miscalculation, no one and I mean NO ONE will ever have a perfect game in which they never die.

Couple this with server issues, then the chances increase exponentially.

And GGG has said that they want to make the trip to max level nearly impossibles. The Merciless and Cruel XP penalties help this. It literally brings nothing to the game, except extending the length of it. Playing 'better' is not going to help you, because this is a Loot Based ARPG. There is no skill involved here.

Even if you choose to build one of the Easy Mode cookie cutter builds that people post and buy all the best gear for it, even if you never get a true desync, You. Will. Die. Repeatedly.

Believe what you will you masochistic grindfest lover, but this game is not very hard, it's all about the cool stuff you can get.

What GGG should be doing to extend the game is not artificially inflate the inability to level, but focus on creating better things to level for.

Stupid things, like unique art for the Unique/legendary weapons and armour. Cool looking skills to blow the mobs up with. Visual stuff, because believe it or not, people, maybe even you, want their little character to look unique and special and cool.

But death penalties don't prove you to be a 'better man', it's a masochistic impulse disguised as E-Peen stroking.

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magicrectangle wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

So you're willing to sacrifice 90% of the player base over a stupid mechanic because YOU'RE happy with your overpowered build? Funny stuff.

What makes you think 90% of the player base agrees with you?

@Nagisawa: This. You're too dogmatic about your position and overly optimistic in your estimation of how many people agree with you. The forums are always the vocal minority in any game. I'm not saying it's not 90% (although it probably is far, far less than that) but I am saying you also don't know only 10% don't agree with you. Just because you found a dozen people (or however many there are) in one thread with a subject intentionally chosen to attract like minded people who think it's too harsh doesn't mean they represent any significant portion of the player base. In fact, I would guess they represent a minority of the player base.

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Phaeded wrote:

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magicrectangle wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

So you're willing to sacrifice 90% of the player base over a stupid mechanic because YOU'RE happy with your overpowered build? Funny stuff.

What makes you think 90% of the player base agrees with you?

@Nagisawa: This. You're too dogmatic about your position and overly optimistic in your estimation of how many people agree with you. The forums are always the vocal minority in any game. I'm not saying it's not 90% (although it probably is far, far less than that) but I am saying you also don't know only 10% don't agree with you. Just because you found a dozen people (or however many there are) in one thread with a subject intentionally chosen to attract like minded people who think it's too harsh doesn't mean they represent any significant portion of the player base. In fact, I would guess they represent a minority of the player base.

WE represent a minority of the player base. The ones GGG need to worry about are the ones who play PoE and then leave, but say nothing about it, because it's not fun for them.

If they happen to be anything close to half of the current gamers, GGG is in trouble, financial trouble, because the less people play and are willing to pay for their overpriced glowies, the less money they get to continue making this game.

That 90%? That was an example and a hyperbolic one as well. I have no idea how many of this 'silent majority' exists. GGG should, and if they want to keep them, some things (maybe not the things WE want) will change. In fact, they likely have.

Thing is, even some of us on this forum see problems. But at least 5 'fanboys' are dedicating their life to insulting and degrading what other people think are issues.

What we, the player base, desperately need at the moment is more transparency from GGG. We need to know the design goals, the vision and the reasons as to why things are the way they are and what they will be changing, especially since they're begging for out money.

Right now, all we have are conflicting ideology, some mods who are in as much dark as we are, and almost complete silence from GGG.

This needs to stop.

I want PoE to be a good game, but I also want to know what it's about.

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Nagisawa wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

The only reason the death penalty exists is to artificially pad the length of this game. Any other excuse you kids bring up is just that, an excuse to make yourselves feel better about having to Korean MMO grind your way to 'the end game'.

You think its acceptable to repeatedly die and get to lvl 100? Are you advocating that their should be no death penalty at all? Because that would make the game feel really stupid.

You WILL repeatedly die. The Law of Averages says so. It will happen, whether by sloppiness, boredom or just miscalculation, no one and I mean NO ONE will ever have a perfect game in which they never die.

Couple this with server issues, then the chances increase exponentially.

And GGG has said that they want to make the trip to max level nearly impossibles. The Merciless and Cruel XP penalties help this. It literally brings nothing to the game, except extending the length of it. Playing 'better' is not going to help you, because this is a Loot Based ARPG. There is no skill involved here.

Even if you choose to build one of the Easy Mode cookie cutter builds that people post and buy all the best gear for it, even if you never get a true desync, You. Will. Die. Repeatedly.

Believe what you will you masochistic grindfest lover, but this game is not very hard, it's all about the cool stuff you can get.

What GGG should be doing to extend the game is not artificially inflate the inability to level, but focus on creating better things to level for.

Stupid things, like unique art for the Unique/legendary weapons and armour. Cool looking skills to blow the mobs up with. Visual stuff, because believe it or not, people, maybe even you, want their little character to look unique and special and cool.

But death penalties don't prove you to be a 'better man', it's a masochistic impulse disguised as E-Peen stroking.

Highlighted what I found important. Your many ill-conceived statements, that you flip flop around like a fish out of water.

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Nagisawa wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

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Nagisawa wrote:

The only reason the death penalty exists is to artificially pad the length of this game. Any other excuse you kids bring up is just that, an excuse to make yourselves feel better about having to Korean MMO grind your way to 'the end game'.

You think its acceptable to repeatedly die and get to lvl 100? Are you advocating that their should be no death penalty at all? Because that would make the game feel really stupid.

You WILL repeatedly die. The Law of Averages says so. It will happen, whether by sloppiness, boredom or just miscalculation, no one and I mean NO ONE will ever have a perfect game in which they never die.

There are quite a few players on the hardcore ladder who would readily disagree with you.

At this point I've read most of your posts and I simply don't think you make much sense. I understand your complaint but I disagree. There are many ways to mitigate the effects of XP loss for Default players and the only counterargument I've seen from the anti-death penalty side is that it's too much effort.

Also, there are tons of places where you can find interviews and developer diaries where GGG has explained their vision for the game including how death should work. I too have complained about GGG's lack of response on some issues (desync comes to mind) but they are far more transparent and interact with the community far more than most game companies. You simply cannot expect GGG to respond to every complaint on the forums, especially complaints which they have already responded to or accounted for via other means (e.g. developer diary). They'd never get any real work done.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of your debate.

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Phaeded wrote:

There are quite a few players on the hardcore ladder who would readily disagree with you.

Then they aren't very good players, and or don't want to play the easy mode builds that are out there.

This game is easy, if you pick the right build. And that is easy to find.

Im quite a new player that quite recently made it to merciless. My initial reaction to a 15% exp loss on death was negative as i got 1 hit killed by charging rhinoas. The mechanic it self may not be bad at all but concidering the current state and function of the game it wasnt very motivating. However if things like that wouldnt happen so early in the merciless difficulty i probably wouldnt care that much.

Punishing death is great but for me personally i already had to respec my Shadow from melee to ranged just becose of how the game functions. I dont have anything against the exp loss mechanic itself but rather in conjunction with the current state of some things i guess.

Just my personal opinion ofc!