Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

"

nerdstomperx wrote:

yes it is pay to win due to stash tabs being an absolute must have if you want to progress in the game (maps+) because as of now the insane amount of random items (currency, div cards, essences, fragments, organs and what not) make it almost impossible to play with the 4 tabs given for free
it was possible to play with 4 tabs some leagues ago, but not anymore
yes you can create 100 level 2 chars and deposit items on them but XD doesnt change the fact that u need stash tabs

also idk why they dont award you with some sort of stash tab for ingame achievements such as reaching a certain amount of challenges, would be useful for once instead of crappy looking mtx

People are gonna tell you, "But you can complete the game with 4 stash tabs!"

Yea, and I can also cut my lawn with a pair of scissors. But its much more efficient if I use a lawn mower.

And, I can mow a lot more lawns than the guy with scissors if I got one.

"

BangaKiltChoazz wrote:

Get real dude

You cant do shit with 3-10 bucks in this game. There is nothing in this game that is less than 5 bucks. If you want 2 extra stash tabs and there is no stash sales going on

What sort of premise is this to debate from? Isn't there a stash tab sale going on every damn month?

And when it's a sale, and you buy that entry pack of $20, you get one tab from the pack, and enough points to buy yourself a premium tab bundle. That's a total of 7 tabs for $20. And if you don't need that, you can get half of that for $10 when there's a sale. Some of you are acting like PoE ruins you. Yes, cosmetics are stupidly expensive, but tabs are not. Not by a long shot.

And that's a one time purchase. One time. It's not like if you pay more, you will be better off. Because every damn league player will be totally OK with 11 tabs.

We are all adults here. $3 dollar for a tab, or $20 for 1 tab + 6 premium tabs will NEVER be "a lot" of money. And if you buy those premium tabs at a sale, you can even afford more for $20 at a sale.

I am quite real here. If a grown man, spending more hours in PoE than most other games, are debating and whining over a few bucks in a free to play game, he... Is... Cheap. Or, as I've said before; he has a wrong definition of what F2P is.

And most of the games you are referring to, are PvP games made by huge companies (Yeah, yeah, GGG are huge too). You can't compare a niche game, in a niche genre, to a freaking PvP first person shooter. Those games will ALWAYS draw a larger crowd than a grindy ARPG, and can afford a different F2P model.

PoE IS "free to play". As I've said; maybe it's P2W. While I don't agree, debate THAT. Because that's a debate. Debating whether or not it's "free to play" is stupid. It IS "free to play". Even if you could buy 50 Shavronne's Wrappings from GGG's store, it would STILL be F2P. Yes, it would be sickening P2W, but still F2P.

It seems to me that Phrazz has a good point there. I'm pleased that we've been able to finally lay to rest this free 2 play controversy. ;-)

"

Destructodave wrote:

"

nerdstomperx wrote:

yes it is pay to win due to stash tabs being an absolute must have if you want to progress in the game (maps+) because as of now the insane amount of random items (currency, div cards, essences, fragments, organs and what not) make it almost impossible to play with the 4 tabs given for free
it was possible to play with 4 tabs some leagues ago, but not anymore
yes you can create 100 level 2 chars and deposit items on them but XD doesnt change the fact that u need stash tabs

also idk why they dont award you with some sort of stash tab for ingame achievements such as reaching a certain amount of challenges, would be useful for once instead of crappy looking mtx

People are gonna tell you, "But you can complete the game with 4 stash tabs!"

Yea, and I can also cut my lawn with a pair of scissors. But its much more efficient if I use a lawn mower.

And, I can mow a lot more lawns than the guy with scissors if I got one.

So lawnmower are pay to win?

"

Aynix wrote:

"

Destructodave wrote:

"

nerdstomperx wrote:

yes it is pay to win due to stash tabs being an absolute must have if you want to progress in the game (maps+) because as of now the insane amount of random items (currency, div cards, essences, fragments, organs and what not) make it almost impossible to play with the 4 tabs given for free
it was possible to play with 4 tabs some leagues ago, but not anymore
yes you can create 100 level 2 chars and deposit items on them but XD doesnt change the fact that u need stash tabs

also idk why they dont award you with some sort of stash tab for ingame achievements such as reaching a certain amount of challenges, would be useful for once instead of crappy looking mtx

People are gonna tell you, "But you can complete the game with 4 stash tabs!"

Yea, and I can also cut my lawn with a pair of scissors. But its much more efficient if I use a lawn mower.

And, I can mow a lot more lawns than the guy with scissors if I got one.

So lawnmower are pay to win?

If I'm in a business to mow lawns, sure is. I'm gonna mow a lot more lawns than the guy with scissors.

Its pointless to talk to people about P2W anyways, because most of you have a viewpoint so narrow on the topic, you couldnt fit a piece of thread through it.

I've played games you guys would consider HEAVILY p2w, that you dont have to spend a dime to beat/play. Lots of mobile games, the most heavily p2w platform on the market. So, I really dont think the mantra "I can do it without spending a dime" is a very good one in my experience. Pay for Convenience is P2W in my book. But heres the thing. I really dont care. Ive spent my fair share of money on this game, on mobile games, on League, on just about any game I enjoy that I can spend money in. I'm merely debating for the debate.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder what you guys actually consider p2w. I mean the viewpoints you have are so narrow, it has to be PvP+items as the only metric you have for P2W, but the amount of those specific games are incredibly tiny. Most of the MMOs or mobile games you consider P2W arent even competitive, or dont actually need you to spend money either. So are they really p2w by your metric? Nope. By mine they are, but so is alot of things.

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Destructodave wrote:

Its pointless to talk to people about P2W anyways

Very pointless in a thread about "F2P" and not "P2W". Those terms aren't mutual exclusive. A game can still be "F2P" even though it has "P2W" elements. Tonnes of F2P games out there that is P2W.

Just create that thread, even though it has been created 29874 times before. I will discuss it open minded for as longs as you want. But tell me; why are people locked on the opinion that PoE is NOT P2W, more "narrow minded" than people locked on the opinion that it is?

So 20 pages in, has anybody brought up a valid point where game content is locked behind a pay-wall or we still have the same obtuse crowd who don't understand definitions arguing against air based on a flawed premise?

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Destructodave wrote:

Its pointless to talk to people about P2W anyways

Very pointless in a thread about "F2P" and not "P2W". Those terms aren't mutual exclusive. A game can still be "F2P" even though it has "P2W" elements. Tonnes of F2P games out there that is P2W.

Just create that thread, even though it has been created 29874 times before. I will discuss it open minded for as longs as you want. But tell me; why are people locked on the opinion that PoE is NOT P2W, more "narrow minded" than people locked on the opinion that it is?

Because pay for convenience is the vast majority of p2w you will see in games. There is very little actual p2w games out there if you dont think so. If you dont think convenience is a form of pay to win, you already narrow your viewpoint to literally PvP games, or competitive games, and then narrow it even further to meaning directly giving you an advantage over a person in a competitive environment.

Theres not many games like that outside of some mobile games.

Also, currency or content hidden behind an actual paywall, to me, is always going to be a form of p2w. Lets take Warframe for example. F2p people can get anything in the game, by just playing the game. They can get warframe slots, item slots, mtx's, warframes, whatever their hearts desire, by just playing the game. Farm some mods/prime parts, trade for platinum, buy whatever you want in the game. In league of legends, you can get any champion in the game by just playing the game and earning essence. You can even get skins f2p. In PoE, you will never earn a stash tab playing the game. It is 100% behind a paywall.

Thats the difference.

All we've decided here is that there's too many different monetization schemes to lump into two or three categories.

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Phrazz wrote:

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BangaKiltChoazz wrote:

Get real dude

You cant do shit with 3-10 bucks in this game. There is nothing in this game that is less than 5 bucks. If you want 2 extra stash tabs and there is no stash sales going on

What sort of premise is this to debate from? Isn't there a stash tab sale going on every damn month?

And when it's a sale, and you buy that entry pack of $20, you get one tab from the pack, and enough points to buy yourself a premium tab bundle. That's a total of 7 tabs for $20. And if you don't need that, you can get half of that for $10 when there's a sale. Some of you are acting like PoE ruins you. Yes, cosmetics are stupidly expensive, but tabs are not. Not by a long shot.

And that's a one time purchase. One time. It's not like if you pay more, you will be better off. Because every damn league player will be totally OK with 11 tabs.

We are all adults here. $3 dollar for a tab, or $20 for 1 tab + 6 premium tabs will NEVER be "a lot" of money. And if you buy those premium tabs at a sale, you can even afford more for $20 at a sale.

I am quite real here. If a grown man, spending more hours in PoE than most other games, are debating and whining over a few bucks in a free to play game, he... Is... Cheap. Or, as I've said before; he has a wrong definition of what F2P is.

And most of the games you are referring to, are PvP games made by huge companies (Yeah, yeah, GGG are huge too). You can't compare a niche game, in a niche genre, to a freaking PvP first person shooter. Those games will ALWAYS draw a larger crowd than a grindy ARPG, and can afford a different F2P model.

PoE IS "free to play". As I've said; maybe it's P2W. While I don't agree, debate THAT. Because that's a debate. Debating whether or not it's "free to play" is stupid. It IS "free to play". Even if you could buy 50 Shavronne's Wrappings from GGG's store, it would STILL be F2P. Yes, it would be sickening P2W, but still F2P.

League of Legends, the biggest game out there, gives way more for your money than PoE and no gameplay aspects of the game whatsoever are gated behind paywalls. PoE is objectively expensive compared to games like League of Legends and in fact most games out there. Advertising itself as "free to play" and then having much of the core game content gated behind the stash paywalls is manipulative and icky feeling especially when it is so obvious the game is designed to flood your stash and force you to purchase stash tabs if you want to keep playing.

As League of Legends has proven, people are happy to pay for cosmetics and other non-gameplay "treats" and to support the company with their money if you spread goodwill to the players and the game is fun. League has been far more successful and made far more money than PoE. League of Legends is not the outlier, it is the industry flagship, there are many many games following the same model nowadays (meaning FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS) including many games much smaller than PoE that survive on cosmetics sales only (not crucial gameplay aspects gated behind paywalls). An example of one game like that, out of hundreds or thousands, is Brawlhalla.

It's important to note to the discussion that MTX does not apply to PoE as there is nothing for sale in PoE that is "micro", everything costs $5+ and there are very few things for sale related to PoE in the sub $10 category.

Therefore, yes in an age when games like League of Legends and Fortnite are the industry standard it is misleading to call a game "f2p" when crucial gameplay aspects are in fact gated behind paywalls. I think the reason PoE has to rely on what is really a paywall or trialware model is because their cosmetics are frankly not very good and grossly overpriced compared to most of the industry (compare to League of Legends or Fortnite, for example, the industry standards). More cynically, they seem to be intentionally using a manipulative model that takes advantage of sunk cost fallacy. By manipulating new players into spending $20-$50+ for stash tabs to keep playing the game they establish a psychological investment that locks those players into their store model and economic paradigm.

All that being said, PoE is a fun game with a lot of replay value and if the price to properly play it is $20-$50 that's not a bad deal at all.