Solution to EXP loss/Death Penalty that wont make everyone angry
" Didn't follow thread, but poe will never be casual even if they address some problems like death penalty, it's designs and droprates serves long grinds to achieve anything. In many of my old posts i also suggested when changing death penalty to a more meaningful system that they also increase the xp required to level by 100% or more for the last levels. This will actually serve to take the grind to 100 longer for these people who don't die very much - something that the game needs badly in my opinion. WHen game was released it took a long time for anyone to hit 100, now it is done in a few days. This change also impacts the hardest the people who cheese easy content with no death risk, and thereby rewards playing riskier content. For death penalty i would suggest that each death gives you 15% stacking reduced xp gain for the next 10% xp gained, capping on 60% reduction. This would allow people to plow ahead just investing extra time to farm instead of raging at being reset and losing will to play. Pair this with the last levels taking twice as much or more xp, and suddenly were starting to look at a more meaningful endgame. Both being easier for the average player as well as making the race to 100 take longer for the elite, while in one fell swoop laying waste to the widely hated death penalty in path of exile desyncing oneshotgame. For anyone playing a dying-all the time glass cannon, or just a bad build and dying all the time this would make it equal to current game with 0 death penalty but taking 5x the amount of experience needed to level. I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all. Last edited by Crackmonster on Feb 11, 2020, 7:22:27 PM
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"i still say mine is not a bad idea and very easy to implement Shitysushi - Arrow shooting build.
Sendeliriante - hollow palmer | |
" In short, you are proposing to reduce the incentive to get xp after dying, which is arguably one of the worst thing you could do. By the way, 40% of xp would not make it 5 times longer ... it would not even make it 3 times longer. It would need to have no cap, as the penalty has a role of soft-caping bad characters/players. Without it, failed builds would reach 90+ much more easily, people would feel less pushed to improve their character and would come QQ here that the content is killing them and about that new penalty at the same time. Nothing would change but for the fact that 'bad' players would run content even less adapated to their character, leading to more frustration. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" +1 Nailed it | |
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No.
Ancestral Bond. It's a thing that does stuff. -Vipermagi
He who controls the pants controls the galaxy. - Rick & Morty S3E1 |
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" From what I'm reading, in regards to the opposition for a casual league, is because it would devalue their legacy standard items. Most people would likely move to the casual league as it's become almost impossible to level beyond 90 (exp death penalty) in this game's current state for most people. People that have a huge investment in legacy items are going to rage at the idea their long term PoE bonds (legacy items) will become worthless as a large chunk of the player base moves to Casual. There is a solution to items however. Fill up a character inventory with legacy items (or perhaps what they can actually wear), have a convert function in Standard league to convert character to Casual, bringing the inventory (or wearable items) with them. I've said this before. Once a game comes out that is at least as good as Diablo 2, this game will die a very quick and sudden death. GGG sold out to 10 cents, so they are taking advantage of their dominance in this genre of games while it lasts. It won't last forever though. Wolcen and Diablo 4 are incoming. | |
" I get what you are saying, it's an old known thought, but it's already been taken into consideration and i still think this is the best way to do it. Whatever happens, happens only for the next 10% xp - in other words its only for the very forseeable future. Not enough to make you feel meaningless about going on, maybe for a short enough time to motivate you to keep going without making mistakes, not demotivating or stopping enough to make you consider that your time is better spent rerolling or that it ruins the meaning of playing that char, enough to make you think okay in a bit ill be back to normal then ill be on my A game and if you make mistake well its not the end of the world. However, current death penalty makes people give up and leave game. All the other options i have seen, have been inferior. Tombstone might be the other way to do it, you might like that more. It will lessen the blow from the rare random oneshots(say you can recover 80% of lost xp or so), and it will give you a chance to recover xp and quit the content and do something easier. Many others speak about taking rewards like drops or xp from your current map, but i don't think that would be practical at all and very complicated to carry out so i don' think that makes so much sense. The idea is that you can keep going steadily and eventually get there. And btw, you didn't seem to read. 60% reduction makes it 2.5 times longer, 100%(or more) required xp increase makes it 2 times longer, 2.5*2 = 5. It should certainly not be without a cap. Quite the opposite that is an intention of the change to allow people to go on without being completely stuck. It is not a problem if someone plays a bad build and still loves to play it, puts in a lot of time coz they die a lot but eventually get high level. They will never compete with a good build anyway, let people have their fun don't try to tell them if they aint good enough they can go fuck off game or if they don't wanna copy build they can go fuck off. That is not a good design, freedom is the birthright of escapism. You get nothing from punishing mediocre players until they leave. These players are no threat, they will never compete with a competent poe player. You have no business wanting them to suffer for not being good enough, it is not a logical thought, it doesn't affect you. In my mind if they wanna thread uphil on a shitty build, and put in 2-3 times the amount of time a good build would take to level, then by all means they deserve it. An old proverb from my country says: "that which you do not possess in your head, you must possess in your legs". Basically means you gotta put in more legwork to make up for what you lack in your mind, if you aren't the sharpest tool you gotta work that much harder. This is the way of life. If these players wanna suffer extra long time playing a shitty build because they enjoy that build, then let them do it they put in more time than you per character. I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all. Last edited by Crackmonster on Feb 11, 2020, 11:06:22 PM
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" That might be what would happen, however I think that it's a very hard thing to predict. I did missread, indeed if you count twice the xp you get from a 60% penalty, that's 5 times the xp required. " It's not about preventing them from having fun, it's about matching them with a content adapted to their character, or at least trying to. If a completely failed build eventually reaches lvl 90 and goes into red tiers ( as you know .. at level 90+, you are kind of supposed to go in red tier maps ) and get screwed over and over, it's probably not a very enjoyable feeling. it would likely add insult to injury. I feel like this is a bit like saying that competitive game (ELO based ones) should grand you increased ELO all the time, because fighting better opponents is more fun .... it isn't, if you get crushed because you don't have the level, it isn't more fun. By the way, I have seen one suggestion for an alternative to the xp penalty on death that I think could work and might even be good : - you loose x% xp on death but you cannot loose more than the maximum xp you have reached - y% of your current level. If x = 10 and y = 15, then you still loose 10% xp on death but if you reached 50% of your level even once, you could never go below 35%. This way, you would not loose all your level if you chain die to a difficult encounter, and you would be able to increase the minimum amount of xp that you could fall back to. It would still softcap bad characters ( as I think it should ), but might make some less scared of trying hard content. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz on Feb 11, 2020, 11:06:19 PM
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" That is all well and good, but sometimes intensions and reality aren't the same. I think everyone, at least myself, keep going into content and want to take on the high maps soon enough, you just get people funneled there and trying to match bad players to what, yellow maps, isn't really a reality i see happening. There is some gating which i feel is good such as shaper and the serious endgame bosses where people skip out on it, it is somewhat seperated from the game and you can chose to enter it or not. That's good, bad players can maybe learn they aren't endgame boss farmers. I don't particularly enjoy that myself unless i play meta or recently dinged so i can die freely. Others love this and thrive on it, it is more a chosen than integral part ofthe game flow. But red maps are a part of the normal flow of the game, and people will get funnelled there and lead to experiencing way worse than annoyance that they die because their build is bad, they will get forced to give up on character that they really wanted to succeed and that they really like to play. Because death penalty frustrates them too much. Items upgrades are so far in between after a bit in poe, xp becomes that thinh which most people chase to get some sort of progression until the get lucky rng on drops or crafts. Even what you are saying, is actually just what death penalty does now only death penalty does it way more extreme and way past the point where it is acceptable to a lot of players. I don't agree with your analogy, ELO is competitive rating, it cannot function if it doesn't match players with those of their level, but besides that ELO is not the same as xp, xp is just character growth it would be more like something such as account xp which you should be able to continue getting even if you were a low ELO player. Also, this is not a pvp game, people solo here they just wanna farm and be able to farm whatever characters they like. I mean, i think what you are saying is that they shouldn't get xp if they don't have good enough build, they shouldn't be lulled into thinking they can go on if their character is not strong enough only to find out they eventually die. But guess what, if they want to keep dying because they would rather die more but continue building their character - then they will do that. It's not the dying that makes them rage(unless trying to do content which has a cost to enter), it's their demotivation that they can keep growing the character. They don't mind dying. Most people care mostly about fun, doesn't matter if they don't get world-best farm rates etc, they will take time and slowly get xp and slowly get items. This the joy of ARPG's. Let them die and progress slowly and have a shitty clearspeed if they wanna play subpar character, the alternative is they eventually leave the game because it's rejecting them! Eventually if death penalty doesn't become the ruining factor it is now, they will end up fixating on endgame bosses being too hard losing their portals without any rewards, but this is an issue that won't become revealed until this greater issue is no longer in the way. " THat could also be worth looking into. It is almost effectively like adding manyfold the amount of levels (threshholds where once reached you can't drop below x). I am not saying at all that my solution is the only that works, in fact i have seen many good solutions over time here on forums. But what i am saying, is that ggg have ignored ALL of them, and it is a damn problem. They either don't care, they don't understand, they don't have the empathy, they are afraid to be soft or they simply just want to create a niche game with no mercy for the average joe. I don't know which it is, but they have lost so many players to death penalty and their general attitude of ignoring human psychology. I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all. Last edited by Crackmonster on Feb 11, 2020, 11:45:49 PM
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" I think that this is a problem. The game has been 'simplified' a lot due to power creep, and player's expectation have also changed a lot. Back couple of years ago, the maximum tier we had was ... like lvl 78 maybe ? I don't think people felt bad if they could not reach / farm it, it was the endgame and not getting that high was not a problem. But now, even somewhat casual players apparently feel entitled to just beating the whole game, even with half-arsed built characters ... and I think that this is a problem, a problem created by powercreep mainly. Arguably, people dying a lot in red maps and their build feeling bad there means that they probably should have been soft caped earlier. Now, you are saying that they will probably give up because of this ... Well, they already have the incentive to improve their character if they want = it is required for progressing. I think that giving them this incentive earlier would be better honestly. " This isn't a problem of item upgrades. It is a problem of characters not being well built. In trade league, I'm pretty sure that it costs almost nothing to gear any achetype to run red maps comfortably. I think that there are two kind of players here : - players who accept that there is something wrong with their character, and try to do something about it, open for advices, etc ... - players who don't accept that they made mistakes with their character, and blame gear being too expensive, or the game being too unfair, or the xp penalty being too harsh, and are not open to criticism. I sure don't want the game to hold the hand of the second category of players and catter to them. This game is still interesting because choices matters ( now some choices are way too broken and are messing up with the whole system cough*necro*cough, cough*impale*cough etc, there is that ). Power creeps makes many choices less and less meaningful, and that isn't a good thing. Soft caping players makes all of your character building choices more meaningful in my opinion. It must feel unfair when you see broken OP archetype having a much easier time though, but that is another problem that needs to be addressed. " Oh they can, farming isn't all about xp. I used the ELO system only to show that being matched against content/players too hard for one to beat does not mean that it will feel good, or fun. Of course this isn't a PvP game and ELO needs to work that way. PoE isn't high skill required game either, it requires a lot of knowledge to get to the top content though ( or playing something broken OP, again those things are messing up with PoE in many ways ). " That is pretty much what I am saying yeah, it's one purpose of the penalty on death. The others being "telling" the player that something is wrong with their character, and adding a value to those last levels. High level content always have a cost associated to it, only map sustain has became so easy that this cost is often negligible I guess, that could be seen as another problem too. It's a really fragile system really. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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