if you dont like to die - just dont die DUH!

they really should gut ES again.

Cute softcore post.

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Wladicorist1 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

Going to high map and dying gives less exp than going to yellow map and not dying. Just sayin.

i know and still it takes ages ...

Because it should take ages. Its not god damn race (unless you are racing for some reason). You have 3 months. Just because some other games give you max level on the silver player after playing for 2 days doesnt mean PoE should do the same.
Want to have max level? Work for it!

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tolunart wrote:

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FramFramson wrote:

The real endgame isn't XP. It's gear. Which is why I think the endgame penalty should be related to loot, not levelling.

Each death applies a -10% less attack/cast/move speed penalty to character and minions/totems etc. A little annoying most of the time, but a difficult fight gets harder as you approach 1/2 speed. Vendors sell tokens to remove the penalty for a few alch or a chaos whatever. Can create interesting situations: how to balance dps/clear speed with tankiness to avoid dying too often, deciding whether to clear the penalty every death or two or push it as far as you can stand and clear a large penalty with one payment.

It makes the game more challenging, reduces loot and clear speed but only as much as the player wants to put up with. But doesn't feel as bad as watching your XP bar shrink with every death.

I'll respond to this with a GIANT hell no. Currently, dying is similar to dark souls. You lose "experience", although in Dark Souls you have an opportunity to get it back.

If they did some sort of stat reduction, it would be much more like Dark Souls 2 (with their BS max health reduction when you die).

To give perspective, I beat DS1/3 and quit DS2 about 2 hours in. If they changed the death penalty to some sort of stat loss, I'd be out for good.

You are meant to die to random oneshots with no interaction in this game. Run pure breachstones/beachheads if you want to get to 100 easily.

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DiabloImmoral wrote:

You are meant to die to random oneshots with no interaction in this game. Run pure breachstones/beachheads if you want to get to 100 easily.

Running stone rotas with risk-averse numpties who bail out and skip the boss: priceless

:/

Chris is a big believer in RNG at all phases of gameplay, so it's not really surprising the chances of randomly dying are the same whether you have 10k evasion or 100k evasion, and why there's a growing trend for entities to use invisible ground degen effects, splashing spitter goo around chaotically so you randomly zig into it when you should have zagged, etc.

it's why they design rares and bosses with 3-screen-range fusillades to trigger guard skills and then keep hitting in the guard skill cooldown, or long-range missiles that have an initial hit followed by a payload of swift-affliction degen.

It's why some on-death effects are delayed by as much as 3 seconds, so there's a constant pressure applied to ES recharge as you're moving away from a pack's corpses and heading into another pack.

No matter how meticulously layered your defences, you will die to something outside of your control, and no amount of postmortem slo-mo replay will show you what you could have controlled to avoid it. It's engineered this way to keep you grinding away, because that's what keeps server numbers up and makes GGG look good.

Look at it this way: engineers and doctors and public safety and law enforcement experts have a name for this model of systems failure. It's called the "swiss cheese" effect.

Every outcome, from bad to good, is a product of a process or system. The system is composed of parts, or layers, or checkpoints, towards a goal.

The health system, for instance, is layers of surveillance and preventive checks and good practices that are meant to close all the loopholes and block any adverse event. A lot of it is deliberate redundancy - at multiple steps you check the system so you can ensure that a gap in service at one point does not propagate along the chain.

A patient enters the hospital for a kidney operation. He is identified by a unique number, and at all points his identity is re-verified. At admission, and at the time of surgery, the surgical team verifies his informed consent to undergo the operation. The team verifies with the diagnostic departments which kidney needs the operation. The surgical suite is maintained in sterile condition, and open communication ensures that the family are aware how the surgery will proceed, how the patient fared during the procedure, and what to expect afterwards. The patient's objective and subjective markers of recovery are recorded and he understands what post-procedure care he will need. He is released into the community only when he is capable of recovering at home and has follow-up contact with the health team.

Of course, we know that's not always how it works. System level errors might include operating on the wrong kidney, the wrong patient, doing the wrong procedure on the correct kidney, not monitoring the patient's vital signs correctly leading to complications, not providing the patient with instructions for care at home, not arranging the patient to return in 1 week for his ureteral drain to be removed, or any number of other minor "holes" or "gaps" in any step of caring or due diligence for this patient.

Most of the time, these are minor lapses and go uncommented or even unnoticed as the patient is sent along on their way. And as often happens, surely some other department or "layer" of the system catches the error and corrects it, or mitigates it, or prevents it. But if enough of the small "holes" in several layers of Swiss cheese line up, it becomes possible for a sizable problem to slip through ALL of them and come out the other end.

The same thing applies to your "health care" system.

Max resists cap at 90%. Armour only mitigates 10% of its numeric value in single-hit damage for most achievable armour values. Evasion has an entropy factor that makes getting hit inevitable at some point. Dodge and block are capped at 80%. Extra damage from critical strikes is very difficult to mitigate cost-effectively, even with Solaris pantheon. Ailment avoidance is not granted equally among all classes, and can usually only be achieved temporarily.

There's all these layers, y'see. And they have deliberate, arbitrary swiss-cheese holes - BIG ones. The idea is that you won't ever be able to close these holes, and sometimes they will line up. And they all tend to line up in the one place you don't want them to line up - against the highest acuity bosses and endgame content, because this is where crit multi mitigation matters, where DOT mitigation matters, etc.

So the principle of systemic error as an avenue for adverse outcomes, is applied in PoE - in reverse. PoE is not a hospital, or a municipal water supply, or a joint military exercise; the intent is for the "swiss cheese" holes to line up and bad outcomes to happen so you have to start over (player retention).

Death penalty is not and will never be the problem.
Punishment should always be there for you to learn.
It sole problem is laid in the exp gain with monster lvl capped at 83/84.
After 94/95 you will crawl and crawl because of the exp penalty, not the death penalty.
Honestly, idk why they capped it at lvl 83, just for the sake of 1 exp per map to high lvl player?

I would also like to add that even the worst player can fail their way to 100 by doing safe enough content and then never experience the penalty again.

Like I said, the real endgame penalty should be loot loss (map portals closing) on death.

How is it particularly skill-testing to just throw yourself at a boss five times until you kill them? Once you get to 100 (or 98 or 95 or wherever you decide to stop trying to level), there IS no penalty for dying anymore.

If they changed it so that it wasn't XP, players could build the best build they feel they're able to make (using all 121/123 skill points), but would still be challenged to avoid death forever instead of just some arbitrary limit, after which you get a free pass forever.

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FramFramson wrote:

I would also like to add that even the worst player can fail their way to 100 by doing safe enough content and then never experience the penalty again.

Like I said, the real endgame penalty should be loot loss (map portals closing) on death.

How is it particularly skill-testing to just throw yourself at a boss five times until you kill them? Once you get to 100 (or 98 or 95 or wherever you decide to stop trying to level), there IS no penalty for dying anymore.

If they changed it so that it wasn't XP, players could build the best build they feel they're able to make (using all 121/123 skill points), but would still be challenged to avoid death forever instead of just some arbitrary limit, after which you get a free pass forever.

The problem is that hard bosses like Uber Elder (I'm not even talking about Sirus. I died to him twice on my first try and then beat him. He's super easy and both mistakes were 100% my own). It took me I think 17 tries to kill Uber Elder? That's 17 sets of 6 portals. In your scenario, I would have needed 102 sets of fragments to kill him? Maybe more (because on the 17th try I still didn't kill him deathless).

I think the 6 portals give you SOME chance to learn the fight better...in most cases, if you have no idea how the fight works, you're going to throw yourself at the fight 6 times and lose anyway. My first Catarina fight went like that, because I hate looking up guides or videos beforehand.

So yeah...the xp penalty is kind of a finite way to punish people (eventually they'll just say that level 90-whatever is good enough and not care about dying)...but I don't think single-portal events are a good solution either.

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Aynix wrote:

Because it should take ages. Its not god damn race (unless you are racing for some reason). You have 3 months. Just because some other games give you max level on the silver player after playing for 2 days doesnt mean PoE should do the same.
Want to have max level? Work for it!

im here to "play" a game and have "fun" not "work"
i think we have different understandings of what games are so keep going

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sinub801 wrote:

Death penalty is not and will never be the problem.
Punishment should always be there for you to learn.
It sole problem is laid in the exp gain with monster lvl capped at 83/84.
After 94/95 you will crawl and crawl because of the exp penalty, not the death penalty.
Honestly, idk why they capped it at lvl 83, just for the sake of 1 exp per map to high lvl player?

the only thing i learn from dying is that i should stop wasting my time with that game after i beat the content
the exp penalty doesnt add anything for me at least also there is a reason why people criticize it from time to time
its like people who dont work you wont get all people to go to work :D

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crunkatog wrote:

Chris is a big believer in RNG at all phases of gameplay

i feel like he just bumps the drop rates for the streamers because they represent his game
he should go and see how rng in binding of isaac rebirth works