instead of 3.9 bow rework we should get a 3.9 melee rework 2.0

"

1453R wrote:

My point is that taking a slow-hitting, mono-target melee skill and expecting it to clear better than a fully kitted out, maximum investment thousand-exalt chainmonster offscreen build or MELEE IS BROKEN FOREVER(!!!!1!) is utterly ludicrous and shows a complete, fundamental lack of understanding as to how Path of Exile works.

heres the thing, if you reverse those situations the problem becomes apparent, a 1000ex heavy strike build clears worse than 5c ranged.

If you put AC and Melee splash on heavy strike it clears comparably to any other melee skill, but having to run two gems that shit on your skill is a bit outdated in "how path of exile works".

Melee will never clear as fast as ranged without a heavy rebalance that's a given but they were fine with molten strike doing 500-1000% for about 6 leagues and that was already a better clear skill than any of the namelock skills.

Just because its garbage doesn't mean its not worth ANY time at all. They could at least let namelock skills bring the damage in return for their shitty playstyle (much like mines used to be)

"

trixxar wrote:

Melee could be reworked to be effective. I think the main issue is that generally POE wants you to use the same skill to kill a 20M life boss as it does trash mobs with no hp. If you give it aoe, its 5m DPS screen clears instantly with no risk. If it doesn't do millions of DPS, you can't do endgame content.

Both perforate and bladestorm clearly tried to address this. More damage in a small box, or less damage spread out or moving around.

I think GGG could be creative and create more tectonic slam type skills, but have damage be based entirely on proximity. Standing next to shaper, 2M dps. Screenwide, hitting reasonably but not millions of dps.

The other alternative is make melee into range, ala Cobra Lash, which is a reasonably popular skills (probably half due to it being Mathils first league build).

Perfectly said...that is why i havent bought any supporter packs and will not if 4.0 wont show amazing changes in animations and gameplay and complete rework of mechanics in this game.

Bow users still mostly need 2 sets of 6 links one for clear and one for ST.

"Changes in animations"...

People.

People.

It's an isometric canned-animation top-down click-and-go game. There is no such thing as smooth fighting game-quality melee shit here. You click, you get one of the maybe three canned generic animations for your skill, it does its thing.

I am so unbelievably bloody sick of this notion that mono-target namelock melee is the only thing that's supposed to be able to "bring the damage" in this game. Every stupid time this stupid argument flares its stupid head, the Grognak crowd insists that any ranged build needs to be made of spun sugar and hit like a miniature teddy bear.

Melee needs to deal ten times the damage of every other build AND gain ten times the durability of any other build AND get ten times the movement capability of any other build AND ignore boss control effects or high-damage slams AND ignore counterattack-y mods like Volatile Flameblood, AND spells/arrows need to disappear as soon as they leave axefacing distance, or the stupid goddamned melee assholes will never be happy.

People want to get rid of offscreening? Cool. All for it. Redesign Point Blank and Far Shot to be less weird, apply a steep damage dropoff to anything that isn't within render distance of the character, and apply damage immunities to anything that hasn't rendered yet is somehow there to take a hit. I'm sick of my skills getting away from me and loot dropping three screens away anyways.

People want REAL MAN MELEE to be the armorboss juggernauts of the world? Cool. Go for it. Fix the armor formulas (even though they're doing exactly what they're supposed to), proliferate Fortify, change the dumbass mono-target namelock skills to things that also proc defensive buffs the way Vigilant Strike was supposed to do (except don't be as bad as Vigilant Strike), but make that shit ablative or require some timing because otherwise we get people AFKing Uber Elder and that's just not REAL MAN MELEE.

People want bows to deal no damage, spells to deal less damage, bow/spell characters to get no movement or mobility, evasion or ES-based defenses to be completely invalidated, so-called "pseudo-melee" skills to be reclassified to not use melee supports, or any of that shit? Fuck off. Go play Dark Souls. Leave the rest of us be.

this is some insane hyperbole filled rant full of comparisons only one person as made and conveniently ignoring every other balance consideration including the ones not even related to melee :p

So totally on point and within reason for this stanky cesspit of a forum, ne?

Heh. The REAL MAN MELEE jackwaffles always seem to forget that some people play archers, wandslingers, spellcasters and the like not because they're 'better' than melee, but because they like those characters. I've always strongly favored nimble, maneuverable archers with excellent groundspeed and mobility with avoidance-based defenses. I like that archetype, I would play it by preference even if REAL MAAAAN MELEE was the 'optimal' way to run Path of Exile.

Some people simply like playing archers. Or casters. or those other things the lolozoris of the forum have made eight million threads castigating now because they want brute Grognak axefacing to be the only method of playing the game. Despite the fact that Dark Souls was built specifically for them to take brute Grognak axefacing and make it the best possible way to play.

I will say that playing a caster build actually made me much better at melee. You learn avoidance or you die every encounter once you get to T13+, not even mentioning betrayal or beyond or legion mobs.

Melee sometimes think they should always stand in the center of the storm and be able to live.

Melee can be effective now, if you learn dashing, dodging, strike and run.

It's just... its more effective to do that and just cast or scourge arrow.

Although I didn't follow all of it, I almost agree with 1453R that the devs haven't left a ton of space for melee in the game and that it would be hard to do so now.

Your options are making melee like spells (bladestorm is kinda like vortex), or making them like bow users (cobra lash is basically a bow skill that uses dagger/claw).

You hit the nail on the head, Trixxar.

As best I can determine, the melee issue isn't even about clearspeed. Not really. Whenever people get into more than just pissing vinegar and trying to make sure everything sucks as badly as Heavy Strike does, what the melee folks seem to want more than anything is the ability to stand toe to toe with any creature and stare it in the eye as they axeface it to death. They want to be able to withstand any blow, weather any amount of incoming damage, in order to heroically and gloriously slug it out face to face like real warriors.

Ergo why I tend to snark off at them with the REAL MAAAAAN MELEE bit - what they're looking for is for close, axeface-distance mono-target melee (and ONLY axeface-distance monotarget melee) to basically be invulnerable to all harm. because for them, the thrilling moments are when they're locked in close combat with an extremely powerful foe, testing their mightiest of thews and the power of their axe against creatures of unimaginable power and alien origin.

DPS and clearspeed almost doesn't matter, save that it acts as a "Currency Get" modifier and people feel like they're being left behind if they can't clear seven maps a minute. These folks want to feel invincible, not fast and deadly. Slow, heavy, and inevitable, as opposed to the lightning-fast sharp-edged wind folks like me enjoy.

You can get there, of course. Thicc Jugg has been a thing for several leagues now, in various iterations. They just don't like how much investment it takes to get there, or the fact that investing in defense means you're not investing in offense and thus the offensive builds outstrip them in mobility and damage because they focus all their resources on being invulnerable.

Never mind that the Fast Punchy Bois need to be very, very careful to be where the damage is not if they'd like to live long enough to hit level 90, let alone get higher than that. Nah. Immortal Juggernaut Ultradefense should come free of investment to monotarget namelock melee and monotarget namelock melee ONLY, and everything else needs to not only be as fragile as it already is now, it also needs to be slower in both DPS and actual movement than Super InvulnTank monotarget namelock melee.

Because fuck everything, right?

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1453R wrote:

Spoiler

You hit the nail on the head, Trixxar.

As best I can determine, the melee issue isn't even about clearspeed. Not really. Whenever people get into more than just pissing vinegar and trying to make sure everything sucks as badly as Heavy Strike does, what the melee folks seem to want more than anything is the ability to stand toe to toe with any creature and stare it in the eye as they axeface it to death. They want to be able to withstand any blow, weather any amount of incoming damage, in order to heroically and gloriously slug it out face to face like real warriors.

Ergo why I tend to snark off at them with the REAL MAAAAAN MELEE bit - what they're looking for is for close, axeface-distance mono-target melee (and ONLY axeface-distance monotarget melee) to basically be invulnerable to all harm. because for them, the thrilling moments are when they're locked in close combat with an extremely powerful foe, testing their mightiest of thews and the power of their axe against creatures of unimaginable power and alien origin.

DPS and clearspeed almost doesn't matter, save that it acts as a "Currency Get" modifier and people feel like they're being left behind if they can't clear seven maps a minute. These folks want to feel invincible, not fast and deadly. Slow, heavy, and inevitable, as opposed to the lightning-fast sharp-edged wind folks like me enjoy.

You can get there, of course. Thicc Jugg has been a thing for several leagues now, in various iterations. They just don't like how much investment it takes to get there, or the fact that investing in defense means you're not investing in offense and thus the offensive builds outstrip them in mobility and damage because they focus all their resources on being invulnerable.

Never mind that the Fast Punchy Bois need to be very, very careful to be where the damage is not if they'd like to live long enough to hit level 90, let alone get higher than that. Nah. Immortal Juggernaut Ultradefense should come free of investment to monotarget namelock melee and monotarget namelock melee ONLY, and everything else needs to not only be as fragile as it already is now, it also needs to be slower in both DPS and actual movement than Super InvulnTank monotarget namelock melee.

Because fuck everything, right?

Bah, humbug.

Will simply quote the last reply, though you severely extrapolated the fact that REAL MELEE users "want it all" - which is false, some of us simply want REAL MELEE to HAVE A DAMN PURPOSE for once, and actually excel at it - during all the other posts.

So, the problem we have it's not that casters/ranged chars excel at clear speed - they should - it's that damage is TOO EASILY ACHIEVED for everyone that doesn't actually HAVE TO HIT ENEMIES WHILE SMELLING THEIR ARMPITS.

Want to get EPIC LEVEL of damage? Then you have to make some sacrifices - stand still to channel (making you prone to hits/spell hits and death), but simply excelling at both moving/dodging/clearing AND DAMAGE is a tad much, don't you think???

It's also a matter of having decent capabilities regarding dishing that damage in that REAL MELEE range and surviving the incoming damage. Better movement/damage awareness AND a severe penalty regarding clearspeed are a DAMN CERTITUDE when you play REAL MELEE.

Some of us enjoy being "in the middle of the DAMN action" with a character that can manage to stay alive, yet in PoE, due to the absurd power creep, the survivability versus dangerous attacks (not talking about boss special actions which should one shot you if not handled properly) of difficult enemies, for a melee character is severely lacking.

The ideas that damage should be based on PROXIMITY, would address instantly this kind of gripe, as you should always deal the most damage when you are "smelling the opponent's armpits"...

A further boost like making those REAL MELEE skill provide more damage reductions, and increasing survivability would be also a bonus.

Projectile/AoE builds need no further adjustments if DAMAGE SCALES BY PROXIMITY, and offscreening is brought under control.

I have mostly played melee and REAL MELEE builds since I started in 1.3.0, and I still take at least 7-10 minutes to clear a map as I'm a compulsive hoarder (sure, I can go "SONIC" and clear maps in a <1 min with a ranged char if I feel like it, but it simply doesn't appeal to me), and I don't mind that we have various archetypes as options - miners/trappers, necromancers, totemancers, golemancers, AoE melee, rangers etc. etc. - it's simply that even those "puny" REAL MELEE archetypes SHOULD HAVE A DAMN PURPOSE in PoE (they don't have one, and haven't had one since ~1.4.0).

"

trixxar wrote:

Spoiler

I will say that playing a caster build actually made me much better at melee. You learn avoidance or you die every encounter once you get to T13+, not even mentioning betrayal or beyond or legion mobs.

Melee sometimes think they should always stand in the center of the storm and be able to live.

Melee can be effective now, if you learn dashing, dodging, strike and run.

It's just... its more effective to do that and just cast or scourge arrow.

Although I didn't follow all of it, I almost agree with 1453R that the devs haven't left a ton of space for melee in the game and that it would be hard to do so now.

Your options are making melee like spells (bladestorm is kinda like vortex), or making them like bow users (cobra lash is basically a bow skill that uses dagger/claw).

For me it was a different experience, playing a ranged build made me laugh at the game difficulty, and going glass canon exacerbates the mandatory skillplay required, as one shooting the loot pinatas is not hard, yet you still have to pay attention to post death effects, reflect, mirages, volatiles etc.

I can manage clear while dying only to "piloting" skill deficiencies on those red tier maps, and bossing requires simply burst damage if I play a glass canon, while also experiencing a way less difficult game due to having constant opportunity at doing damage while better positioning the character constantly on a non glass canon ranger... So it simply relegates PoE to "easy mode" for me - sure, the real hard end game encounters are a different matter, but I still think ranged/cast playstyles are having a "tad" easier experience than melee/REAL MELEE...

Some enjoy being "up close and personal", but that is hindered at times due to the fact that devs have to ensure those ranged/cast players get the "short stick" too, at least once in a while, which simply shafts more times than normal the previous archetype...

TencentGGG have options, but they simply haven't taken PoE neither into a "delete REAL MELEE" or "balance projectile/AoE" definite direction yet...

"

1453R wrote:

Some people simply like playing archers. Or casters. or those other things the lolozoris of the forum have made eight million threads castigating now because they want brute Grognak axefacing to be the only method of playing the game. Despite the fact that Dark Souls was built specifically for them to take brute Grognak axefacing and make it the best possible way to play.

I really feel like you've created a fictious person here, i can't remember reading anybody who wanted melee to be the only method of playing the game most just want some kind of mild buffs that actually appreciate that melee is garbage in the context of how we play the game. I've certainly not heard anything about grognaks

that being said some keyboard warriors did ardently try to argue that zombies were going to be absolute garbage this league, they conveniently disappeared of course but maybe i just missed the angry grognaks :p