instead of 3.9 bow rework we should get a 3.9 melee rework 2.0

your making a classic PoE mistake here by looking at the damage effectiveness then thinking it must be better than a skill with a lower damage effectiveness.

This just isn't the case, all the most popular skills have totally bullshit values. Scourge arrow is 360%~ on the main shot not including the 5 180's you hit anything with. Pre nerf Molten strike was approaching 1000% in the right setups, Tornado shot was reaching 500%+, bladeflurry a long ago nerfed skill is 360-400% depending on your timing.

Even earthquake is 320 and that hits a good chunk of the screen though obviously has an attack speed restriction to do that. Ground slam does 186 (heavy strike for reference does 222 if i remember) has good AoE coverage and still has the stun threshold.

Vigilant strike is a joke and everyone knew it was a joke when they put it in :P they publicly stated they were going to make it hit hard AF and i don't even think it was used by anyone the very league they included it. Don't forget too that when they recently "buffed" the melee skills they actually added an attack speed slow on almost all of them that removed i

Conc effect used to be very relevant but recently its become much easier to get a set of 5 more multipliers on your skill as they keep adding new ones that bring enough.

Skills need to be balanced by scaling options, that doesn't mean they need to have glacial hammer do 1000% that isn't what i mean at all but it does mean they can be fairly generous when dealing with their base attributes.

"

lolozori wrote:

Dash should have been locked to melee use only.

No. There is no bloody reason that every other archetype in the game should be disallowed to dodge. The days of only Whirling Blades-eligible weapons being allowed tactical mobility in combat are gone, and they should stay gone. Dash is amazing, it works for everything, and the fact that it works for everything is part of why it's amazing.

Every build deserves the option to pick up tactical mobility of the type Dash represents. Dash is perfect for that because it is the bare necessity, stripped down to the glorious essentials - a high-speed, short-range blink that gets you away from the Bigg Owch. No damage, no side effects, no weirdness - just movement. The skill is nigh perfect in its elegant simplicity and melee grognaks demanding that yet more of the game be locked to "MELEE ONLY" when over two thirds of the skill and support gems in the game are already MELEE ONLY can pretty much suck a fat one.

"

lolozori wrote:

as for the motivation for this thread you are all wrong. I never asked to have melee hit harder or have the same efficiency than ranged.

Bullshit. That is exactly what you're pushing for and everybody knows it. Don't feed people a line just because people capable of both out-debating and out-rhetoricking you turned up to ruin your day.

@Draegnarrr

I'm aware of the 'real damage effectiveness' attributes and admit I'm not entirely sure of whether most strikes compete. I just know that I've seen plenty of evidence that strikes can be pushed harder than people think they can. Targeting woes aside, and those are never going away simply because of the type of game Path of Exile is, I feel like strikes shouldn't need to deal a hundred times the base damage of everything else just because people are angry that we're not all playing Dark Souls.

Let's face the facts: nobody wants to make a Heavy Strike build. Not outside memelord threads or Swag Points or other meta reasons. Walking up to a dude and hitting him in the face with your axe is boring, when compared to stuff like walking up to a dude, hitting him in the face, and then making his face explode. Or hitting him in the face to bind his soul to your service before all the souls of his dead buddies tear him limb from limb. Or hitting the ground his face is standing on so damn hard that it explodes in force and shrapnel.

People yell at Grinding Gear all the time for pushing MTX sales, and they could really stand to slow down on that shit, yeah. But nobody wants to play Heavy Strike when they could play something with more flair to it instead. There's nothing mechanically interesting about Axeface McSkill, and the success of skill reworks that added interesting new mechanics or effects rather than simply adjusting numbers shows that people want some meat on their damage-y bones.

People bitch about Blade Flurry, Bladestorm, Lacerate, and all the other 'pseudomelee' skills, but then those ones are enduringly popular and see significant use league after league even when they aren't part of the latest rebalance efforts. Again, I ask a simple question.

What's wrong with liking things other than Axeface McSkilling?

Meta slaves won't play anything that isn't OP as fuck but for those of us that make builds ourselves and care less about performance strike skills are fun and people do choose to play them.

I'd rather play glacial hammer than lacerate for example I just think the numbers should reflect that we all know strike skills suck. They had a real opportunity this league to test things out with the strike skills hit an extra target node but they gated it behind such a high cost that i doubt anybody is actually trying it out.

"melee range"

LOL

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

Meta slaves won't play anything that isn't OP as fuck but for those of us that make builds ourselves and care less about performance strike skills are fun and people do choose to play them.

I'd rather play glacial hammer than lacerate for example I just think the numbers should reflect that we all know strike skills suck. They had a real opportunity this league to test things out with the strike skills hit an extra target node but they gated it behind such a high cost that i doubt anybody is actually trying it out.

My brother's using it, actually. Admittedly he's using it on a Frost Blades Raider with two chains from Touch of Anguish, Multirstrike and hella attack speed, which A.) makes it a little hard to tell which darts came from what stab, and B.) kinda misses much of the point. But he's told me the build feels a lot smoother and more reliable since he acquired that infusion. Obviously bossing isn't helped at all, but he gets double the amount of clearing DPS and more importantly, the 'free' strike autotargets and makes sure he gets darts going. Lot fewer instances of their being stragglers behind him or similar issues, and it's helped immensely in keeping the pressure up during lategame Blight encounters.

I'll admit, if I had more money than God I'd be looking into the whole Wild Strike 50+ chain build with Ancestral Call and Tribal Fury, but even though Blight has been ludicrously profitable for me (by my admittedly shoddy standards, anyways), that one remains out of reach. Don't see how it'd help Heavy Strike or Glacial Hammer much outside of Glacial Hammer getting more reliability from its splash thresh jewel, but now that I think about it Tribal Fury might help Molten Strike recover a little bit from the nigh-fatal mugging it took in 3.7.

"

1453R wrote:

No. There is no bloody reason that every other archetype in the game should be disallowed to dodge. The days of only Whirling Blades-eligible weapons being allowed tactical mobility in combat are gone, and they should stay gone. Dash is amazing, it works for everything, and the fact that it works for everything is part of why it's amazing.

Every build deserves the option to pick up tactical mobility of the type Dash represents. Dash is perfect for that because it is the bare necessity, stripped down to the glorious essentials - a high-speed, short-range blink that gets you away from the Bigg Owch. No damage, no side effects, no weirdness - just movement. The skill is nigh perfect in its elegant simplicity and melee grognaks demanding that yet more of the game be locked to "MELEE ONLY" when over two thirds of the skill and support gems in the game are already MELEE ONLY can pretty much suck a fat one.

The reason would be that in order to distinguish an archetype, said archetype should have something for himself unique from the others.

Your anger and blindness created by what your perceive as an attack on you poe favorite lifestyle (ranged) make you forget that Bow casters already have tactical defensive and offensive mobility skills int he form of blink arrow and mirror arrow. They have archetype based on move speed with chest designed specially for them (QOF for example). They do not lack defensive movement ability unlike Melee.

So you give them in plus of those specific defensive move skills the only one that melee needed. Like star wars from JJ and his Marie Sue, the ranged archetype have it all without needing it all.

So GGG created a Marie Sue in the form of bow ranged character, giving it access to everything possible in term of defense and in top of that it got wide screen offensive possibility from 3 screen front to 2 screen wide.

At this point one should ask why play melee at all, what would push people to play melee instead of the ranged Mari Sue cheat button?

Dash (or other skills) could have been a step into rendering Melee attractive since it could had this ability that others don t have ( and don t need anyway, see Mirror-blink).

"

1453R wrote:

Bullshit. That is exactly what you're pushing for and everybody knows it. Don't feed people a line just because people capable of both out-debating and out-rhetoricking you turned up to ruin your day.

Being out-debated while I never until now started to debate? Might be a true statement, after all I concede if you started to debate with me and I never did with you, you have a point in claiming victory.

One should not project to others his own insecurity this is something I try to apply to myself constantly and is a good advice for others.

But anger do not create the best arguments. If you feel I attacked personally by talking against a path of exile ranged characters patch I apologies deeply. I do not want to create anxiety at all.

My wish I repeat is for the melee patch to be finished. Lot of problems are still there like people having difficulty with skill canceling( This problem is also there for casters) and certain skills not on par with the modern poe gameplay.

In my opinion there is no need to work intensively on bows.Most skills are perfectly fine, got GMP to shoot 3 screen away and two screen wide. While some skills get outshined by tornado shot, none of them are unable to clear end game content and one click deleting maps. They are perfectly balanced right now as the exception maybe in the low to EA and in the high to TS.

So does an archetype balanced correctly and with a Marie Sue have it all really need to be intensively working on? I argue that minor changed can be done and that is all while melee need a whole system change.

And I do not want Melee to be a Marie Sue, I want it to be different. If I want to play a MArie Sue I will play Ranged and blink and zoom zoom. Melee need something else, it needed something the Marie Sue had not. It neede Dash, it needed Fortify. It needed things that others had not to feel useful.

So a 2.0 melee patch to finish the job and repair problems introduced would have been a better idea than (maybe) buffing Marie Sue further.

I like Grognak, You like MArie Sue... can be get along?

Side Note: Anyone ever notice that when the mods are pissed off at a thread and want it to die, but don't feel like they can just lock it and infract everyone involved, they move it to Feedback and Suggestions? Everybody knows that not one single freaking soul reads this section - I had to find this thread from my Recent Posts history to even figure out where it was. It's the Bin of Forgotten Threads, everybody knows it, and I'd honestly rather my threads just get locked than thrown here as some sort of shoddy pretend attempt to say 'we're listening, honest!"

Seriously, @Mod Staff. We all know the score. Man up, lock whichever thread you're Frowny-Facing at, and move on. Don't pull this half-and-half, wishy-washy moose manure and move threads to "Feedback and Suggestions" as if anyone ever actually acknowledges this section's existence.

Anyways. In defiance of the Bin of Forgotten Threads, let me address this latest ridiculousness.

"

lolozori wrote:

The reason would be that in order to distinguish an archetype, said archetype should have something for himself unique from the others.

That's not what 'archetype' means. Melee is distinguished as an archetype, in Path of Exile, by being Axeface McBonecrunch, i.e. the physical act of attacking a target with a weapon (or the impact of a weapon, a'la indirect skills such as Ground Slam or Earthquake). Restricting entire categories of skills, telling spellcasters, wandslingers, archers, and everyone else that their knees are broken and they're not allowed to move or evade is not "distinguishing an archetype", it's baking frustration into the game that doesn't need to be there.

Fortunately, it's NOT there anymore. because Dash is amazing.

"

lolozori wrote:

Your anger and blindness created by what your perceive as an attack on you poe favorite lifestyle (ranged) make you forget that Bow casters already have tactical defensive and offensive mobility skills int he form of blink arrow and mirror arrow. They have archetype based on move speed with chest designed specially for them (QOF for example). They do not lack defensive movement ability unlike Melee.

Blink Arrow is a magnificent traversal skill. Its twenty-year cooldown and nine-year startup means it doesn't apply as tactical mobility, save in exceptionally rare circumstances. Note that even Grinding Gear differentiates between traversal - "Travel skills" - and tactical mobility - "Blink skills". Until the 3.7 rework, tactical mobility came in exactly ONE variety - Whirling Blades. Which was available to sword users, claw and dagger users, and spellcasters who used caster daggers. You were already not the sole recipient of tactical mobility, and there is no way to limit tactical movement skills to "Builds that engage in REAL MAAAAAN MELEE" only anyways. Any caster can equip a dagger or scepter, or anything else if they feel like it, and use the skill regardless of whether they're attacking with the weapon.

As for raw movement speed? Perhaps if acquiring raw movement speed on the tree wasn't a trap. Queen of the Forest is not an entire archetype of itself. Movement speed in the tree down in the Ranger area is of the 2% and 3% varieties, with very few movement nodes being A.) combined with other types of node, a'la Avatar of the Hunt (which was traditionally one of my favorite clusters, I'm legit sad it's so far away from anything else useful now) or B.) strong enough to be worth taking on their own. If I'm investing precious passive points into raw footspeed I want at least five percent footspeed per node out of a cluster, and that notable had best do something other than just give me 6% footspeed. Just like the Grognak players, efficiency and synergy is king for archers, and movement speed clusters are neither of those things.

Which honestly sucks, and it bothers me greatly that investing in speed in this game has effectively zero return outside of basically being a Raider.

"

lolozori wrote:

So you give them in plus of those specific defensive move skills the only one that melee needed. Like star wars from JJ and his Marie Sue, the ranged archetype have it all without needing it all.

Melee did get Dash. As well as Withering Step for light melee in 3.8. Nobody took away your tools, and you seem to be conveniently forgetting that archers are the one class of character that, more or less, cannot ever possess Fortify without being a Champion. The strongest single defensive buff in the game - permanently barred to archers (and wandslingers, but why would you care about them any more than archers?) outside of jank builds. Frankly, that's fine. Archers get much easier access to Acrobatics, which fits the classic narrative of the nimble elven archer.

Even if, historically, actual archers were huge, brutishly powerful men because archery took tremendous physical strength and stamina prior to the creation of the compound bow, while swordsmen were judged not on their sheer power but on their speed, finesse and skill. Hueh. Anachronisms are funny.

"

lolozori wrote:

So GGG created a Marie Sue in the form of bow ranged character, giving it access to everything possible in term of defense and in top of that it got wide screen offensive possibility from 3 screen front to 2 screen wide.

Bow characters do not have Everything Possible in terms of defense. They got access to Defense skills the same as everybody else, but most archers cannot make effective use of Molten Shell, nor can most of them make effective use of Immortal Call. Not enough armor or endurance charges for either. I covered the Fortify thing, and note that life/damage reduction/overall Brawny Defense nodes are basically nonexistent outside the Marauder/Duelist subsection of the tree. You are overly pushing this idea that archers have everything simply because you're irritated that Grognak the Smackbarian can't kill the Uber Elder with a single Heavy Strike.

"

lolozori wrote:

At this point one should ask why play melee at all, what would push people to play melee instead of the ranged Mari Sue cheat button?

You don't really know what a Mary Sue is, do you?

Furthermore: why should people feel pushed to play Grognak the Smackbarian? Why shouldn't they be able to play an archer or a wandslinger if they want to, or a traditional caster, or whatever else? Why should MAN MELEE be the thing they feel like they have to play?

"

lolozori wrote:

Dash (or other skills) could have been a step into rendering Melee attractive since it could had this ability that others don t have ( and don t need anyway, see Mirror-blink).

Depending on your weapon, you get access to Whirling Blades, which is pretty much strictly superior to Dash. You also get access to Leap Slam, which is highly competitive with Blink Arrow as a traversal skill. If you use one-handed swords, you're lucky enough to have access to both. I've played that build before, dual Grelwood Shank Molten Strike. It was lovely - high-speed tactical mobility, quick and easy traversal, the sturdiness and sticking power of a left-side melee build with Fortify whenever I wanted it, 7k health without having to kill myself for it, and the coverage of pre-3.7 Molten Strike. Strongest build I ever made, even if I tend to prefer archers.

But yeah. Melee has never not had access to tactical mobility if the player wanted it. Now they have MORE access, including options for those zweihander players that hated not getting Whirling Blades themselves.

"

lolozori wrote:

Being out-debated while I never until now started to debate? Might be a true statement, after all I concede if you started to debate with me and I never did with you, you have a point in claiming victory.

Ya posted a thread on a forum, dude. That is how you start a debate. Your premise was "BOWS SUCK! DO 3.7 MELEE REWORK AGAIN INSTEAD!" You were wrong and I'm telling you why.

"

lolozori wrote:

One should not project to others his own insecurity this is something I try to apply to myself constantly and is a good advice for others.

Sure, buddy.

"

lolozori wrote:

But anger do not create the best arguments. If you feel I attacked personally by talking against a path of exile ranged characters patch I apologies deeply. I do not want to create anxiety at all.

Anger doesn't create arguments. Passion does. Or in my case boredom and annoyance; bored at work, annoyed that the Grognak the Smackbarian players never shut the fuck up, even after the ENORMOUS boosts and cleanups to melee systems literally last league. We're not even talking last year - you got a monster melee overhaul FOUR FREAKING MONTHS AGO, but now that they've promised a small cleanup pass on bows you're flipping schitts and demanding they never touch any skill class other than melee again.

Learn to share, broheim.

"

lolozori wrote:

My wish I repeat is for the melee patch to be finished. Lot of problems are still there like people having difficulty with skill canceling( This problem is also there for casters) and certain skills not on par with the modern poe gameplay.

The melee patch is fine. Learn to cancel properly. Don't push a movement button unless you're willing to commit to the move. Grognaks complained that stuff like Multistrike and slow animations for certain melee skills was getting them killed by locking them in place, so Grinding Gear gave y'all movement skills that can cancel those animations. Now Grognaks are complaining that they're losing damage because their movement skills are canceling their attacks before they're finished.

You actually, physically, cannot have it both ways. Either the damage is guaranteed and locks you in place, or you can cancel out of the animation and bail on the attack if you need to.

The melee patch IS finished. Wait for 4.0.0, along with the spellcasters who got a much shittier spell patch and no longer get any adjustments at all until the end of next year.

"

lolozori wrote:

In my opinion there is no need to work intensively on bows.

Your opinion is incorrect.

"

lolozori wrote:

Most skills are perfectly fine

Tornado Shot is arguably overpowered. Ice Shot has a very specific build/gear that lets it halfway keep up, mostly because Hyrri's Ire is bonkers now. Scourge Arrow is apparently good if you pack thousands and thousands of flat elemental damage on it. Barrage is a niche tool used by Ice Shot and wandslingers to account for the fact that for both bows and wands, Barrage is the ONLY single target-focused option available.

Bow Skills That Could Use Help:
-Blast Rain
-Burning Arrow
-Caustic Arrow
-Explosive Arrow
-Lightning Arrow
-Siege Ballista
-Shrapnel Shot
-Split Arrow

Ignoring Puncture because it's technically not a 'bow' skill even though it's lolawful, and admitting that Rain of Arrows and Toxic Rain are functional in a game where chaos DoT multi is everywhere and Impale is as gonzo OP as it is.

As has been pointed out to you a hundred times, a "Bow Rework" likely means Tornado Shot getting its eye blackened some and at least some of the above skills being tweaked to not be lolawful.

"

lolozori wrote:

, got GMP to shoot 3 screen away and two screen wide. While some skills get outshined by tornado shot, none of them are unable to clear end game content and one click deleting maps. They are perfectly balanced right now as the exception maybe in the low to EA and in the high to TS.

GMP cuts half your damage off in one fell swoop and mandates the use of a separate single-target skill, which is currently only Barrage. Barrage is THE ONLY skill archers can use to complement a GMP clearing skill even if that's what they want to do. Barrage doesn't fit in every build, and the GMP/Barrage split mandates that players search for two 6Ls if they want to have both decent clear and decent bossing unless their build is weird.

Tornado Shot is the sole exception to this, and is an exception because it basically flips the bird finger at the anti-shotgunning code. Even then, people go as far out of their way as they can to avoid GMP on Tornado Shot, which is why Reach of the Council went on a forty-year Odyssean voyage through all the far-flung territories of Nerf World.

If you really want Tornado Shot to die and rot in hell, maybe - just maybe - you should let Grinding Gear do their bow patch and see if some of the other skills I listed above are reworked to accomplish single-target DPS comparable to at least two thirds of Tornado Puke or Barrage. because right now no other arrow skill manages even a quarter of the focused damage of either skill, with the apparent exception of Scourge Arrow somehow. I honestly don't know why that skill is even a thing, but apparently it is.

"

lolozori wrote:

So does an archetype balanced correctly and with a Marie Sue have it all really need to be intensively working on? I argue that minor changed can be done and that is all while melee need a whole system change.

I am increasingly convinced you don't know what a Mary Sue is.

Melee JUST FREAKING GOT a whole system change. You're not going to get a second one six months later. Not happening. Wait for 4.0.0.

"

lolozori wrote:

And I do not want Melee to be a Marie Sue, I want it to be different. If I want to play a MArie Sue I will play Ranged and blink and zoom zoom. Melee need something else, it needed something the Marie Sue had not. It neede Dash, it needed Fortify. It needed things that others had not to feel useful.

Grognaks HAVE Fortify. They HAVE Dash. They have access to the full complement of Guard skills. They have twice the life of everybody else. The fact that you don't feel useful unless you can clear as fast as a hundred-exalt Tornado Nonsense build is a you problem, not a Path of Exile problem.

"

lolozori wrote:

So a 2.0 melee patch to finish the job and repair problems introduced would have been a better idea than (maybe) buffing Marie Sue further.

YOU. JUST. FREAKING. GOT. A. MELEE. OVERHAUL.

What earthly reason do you have for feeling entitled to a second one four minutes after the first one? Did the spellcasters cry and whine because their Huge Spell Overhaul was nothing but an oddly wide-ranging numbers tweak with very little in the way of actual new content or mechanics?

They ripped out the melee system by the roots and fixed it for you. What the hell more do you think they're going to do?

"

I like Grognak, You like MArie Sue... can be get along?

Clearly not, if you have no idea what a Mary Sue is and continue this insistence that every single patch from now until the servers shut down should be another melee overhaul, with no thought ever given at any other point ever again to whether any other archetype is years out of date and could use a facelift.

Not that you're going to read any of this. Not while it's in F&S. But gods damnit I wrote it anyways, and whichever mod it was that tried to kill the thread can lock it freaking properly this time if they want it dead.

I am admittedly a noob when it comes a bow builds, but killed shaper with a self-made non-bow build last league. So I know a little bit about the basics. This league, I decided to grab a deadeye, chose ice shot...and stopped at lvl 56 because my damage was godawful, boss fights were an absurd test of how much boredom I am willing to endure. And obviously, PoB came up with no improvements.

I know, rangers scale well in endgame. But a lot of stuff is heavily gear gated and i think i never had a worse leveling experience than an ice-shot ranger. I would happily take a rework especially for lower levels.

Is there any action-rpg where melee is as good as ranged ?

Because it always been a recurrent problem in every action-rpg if I recall correctly.

Thread died with massive use of hyperbole and derailing in silly comparisons that dont match reality. People play melee its okay from absolutle perspective but in relation to other builds melee need a distiguishing factor that make people wanna play melee as a rewarding option not as forced meta shift.

One such distiguishing characteristic could be superior single target damage against bosses or like built in defenses as little perks in melee strike tagged skills. GGG is going towards the more risk more reward route according to recent news posts. Part of being melee is having close range risks but no real rewards.