[3.11] Aquarism's Ice Shot [All Content]

You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.

Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)

Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000

This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.

On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.

Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.

Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.

On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)

Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.

"

Slottm wrote:

You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.

Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)

Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000

This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.

On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.

Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.

Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.

On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)

Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.

Just wanted to say, unlike freeze chill and shock, ignite does not have a threshold. Any Crit will inflict ignite as long as you have any source of fire damage. That’s why the taming is recommended, 80% increased elemental damage.

"

Aquarism wrote:

"

Slottm wrote:

You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.

Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)

Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000

This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.

On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.

Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.

Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.

On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)

Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.

Just wanted to say, unlike freeze chill and shock, ignite does not have a threshold. Any Crit will inflict ignite as long as you have any source of fire damage. That’s why the taming is recommended, 80% increased elemental damage.

Well, good points - but does this not force us to use Yoke of the suffering as Amulet of choice? Realy cheap, your chilling hits will put shock on the mob too (even it might be low) and you get inc. dmg taken for chill shock and ignite.

iam using yoke, but according to poe ninja almost noone else does.

cheers

Yoke basically only gives shock. It is quite weak for an amulet. I’m not at desktop atm so I can’t calculate what degree of a shock it is, 5% or 50%. Or is it worth swapping for a rare amulet or Pandemonius

"

Slottm wrote:

You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.

Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)

Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000

This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.

On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of fire damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 fire damage. Your fire damage is too low to even be considered to put burning on the monster.

Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.

Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock or burn unless your other damage types are absurd.

On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)

When I was quoting you, it was to say you were AGAINST the 2 nodes, so that is in line with your thought process here for it. I mentioned that so as to let Aqua now it wasn't necessarily his details I was questioning.

"Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand"
No need to be condescending there dude, it helps having multiple perspectives and I've already said in the past I acknowledged your help with people on this forum. Let's be on the side of the people rather than trying to oppose one another simply because we have opposing information, is that clear?

Your calcs on shaper are correct, however that's an incredibly narrow lens for the content that I stated was probably 5% of what people fight against in their maps. By 5% I mean actual bosses like the conquerors, Sirus, elder, shaper, Uber where they can't be frozen. For unique bosses you can still absolutely freeze them to death hence the chance to freeze definitely is a factor. Not only that but rare mobs depending can take 3-4 iceshots and when you're surrounded by them you'd rather have the additional freeze chance. Hence your math proves true only for the minority of fighting where freeze can't happen on a boss anyways. No one is expecting to freeze a boss, it's the freeze and shock on rare mobs that don't die instantly people are concerned with.

Now, disregarding bosses, this is where I believe the understanding on igniting/shock is lacking.
"Lets say you add a little bit of fire damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 fire damage. Your fire damage is too low to even be considered to put burning on the monster."

That there is not the case at all, many rangers run a tiny bit of flat fire (most times from a single source like jewel) for the ignite effect to occur. It computes like this if you have the nodes:
1(Prerequisite).Do you have a chance to ignite: Yes, 10%
2. Do you have the flat damage required to ignite: Yes, even a tiny bit from a jewel

Whereas without the nodes you have the flat damage but without a main primer or prerequisite.

Talking about the math is one thing, for evidence though, I only have fire damage on one of my jewels and monsters get ignited just fine. It's important for a build like this to state the chance to apply those ailments is more important than simply 4% more elemental damage... people like myself use Cinderswallow which requires interacting with ignited mobs, and other people using The Taming requires all three elemental mods to amp their damage.

Notable players (Cutedog) and level 100 Deadeyes with confirmed knowledge and ladder accomplishments largely gravitate toward the bottom nodes. It's a bit strange for you, who was advocating for survivability through life nodes etc would consider 4% wed more important than securing freezes against t16 map bosses and swarms of rare mobs. Hence the only reason you'd have this viewpoint is if you lacked understanding of ignite being a possibility or not realising the value of these ailments on all content barring the one or two bosses we run every 40 maps versus the actual bosses and mobs in those 40maps. As stated no one is expecting to freeze kill Sirus before he can cast a storm, that's established knowledge.

I don't see how chain is less relevant just because it's not on barrage? It's not like you run fork on barrage. Chain is far more reliable for going on autopilot, it's like aimbotting with where you aim in a general vicinity and regardless of angle it latches on to something surprisingly far away - that is the strength of it. I did say though, if you like fork, sure, Aqua says any of the three is fine anyways. But I'm not going to NOT support Chain, I already stated why the dmg per chain can be important for those still investing. It's a bit aggressive to call chain meaningless when it's level 1 awakened value (simply for having an extra chain) is starting at 10ex, and more or less all endgame users opt for it. On my searches for differing build patterns fork was incredibly rare to see, and it comes down to functionality: people grinding 100 aren't kidding around yo.

"

Slottm wrote:

You're quoting me, but no. I am absolutely against the two nodes under primeval force. If you aren't criting, you're hitting for roughly 1/6th the damage. +5/ +10% chance to freeze or something isn't going to get you over a monster's minimum health threshold (let's say for a boss especially). Barrage is already borderline meeting some harder bosses ailment threshholds (to chill) meaning that on a non-crit you have no chance. Extra chance there does absolutely nothing if you don't meet the number required to hit the minimum.

Let's take a simple math equation for you to try and understand (note the numbers are fictitious here for ease of understanding)

Let's say Shaper has 72,000,000 health with a minumum ailment hit threshhold of 150,000

This means that your hit HAS to deal 150,000 damage before it even has a chance to consider putting an ailment on the monster.

On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster.

Now lets say its a non crit, and you have 500% crit multiplier. This means your normal barrage hit is dealing 40,000 per hit with a 10% chance to chill, freeze, burn, etc. 40,000 is far less than the 150,000 min hit, meaning that having 10% chance to chill or 20% chance to chill is completely meaningless.

Maybe this is doable with normal ice shot, as it has a 300% modifier for chill? but...you're never going to be able to shock unless your other damage types are absurd.

On trash, who cares, that stuff is 1-2 shot anyway. More chain vs more fork? Its meaningless, as it's not on your main skill (barrage) and your choice is hitting fewer targets harder (chain) or blowing up a screen in 3 hits. I prefer blowing up a screen (esp in blighted maps)

Is burn / ignite even worth considering? The damage looks meaningless.

Lol @ changing the quote "On a crit, lets say your barrage does 240,000 cold damage per hit. This crit has 100% chance to chill the monster. Lets say you add a little bit of lightning damage on the hit, so you now do 240,000 cold and...15000 lightning damage. Your lightning damage is too low to even be considered to put shock on the monster." from fire to lightning damage. That is why I pointed out earlier there was a lack of understanding in this regard. You could at least own up to the ignite factor. It's not meaningless, as Aqua stated for one, it is used for The Taming for all the damage. It isn't the burn damage or w/e it's the ailment interacting with other items such as Cinderswallow, taming etc.

Hello,could anyone take a look at my POB? Im really struggling to do single targer dmg(i knew it sucks but i think im just missing something important) but in my eyes i have all the uniques, rare items to do so. At first i didnt have much a thought because i only had 1 5link but after i spended all my currency for the "budget" watchers eye and buying my first 6link i was really hopping to get better result then what im have atm. I can clear trash very easy most of the time with 1 shot but single target and killing any unique enemy or boss bacicly becomes dark souls to me.
This is my POB (https://pastebin.com/SYrVEM8S)
This a video before i did my "majors upgrades(watchers eye,6lin,new rare jewels,tombfist) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOBMZvKYIRM]


And this is me today gettin frustared killing metamorph for 10 min
[Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIFUYDSaqIY]
[Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJOhQdU5Bk&t]
[part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GsJo2lcWa0&t]

"

THEarmisLT wrote:

Hello,could anyone take a look at my POB? Im really struggling to do single targer dmg(i knew it sucks but i think im just missing something important) but in my eyes i have all the uniques, rare items to do so. At first i didnt have much a thought because i only had 1 5link but after i spended all my currency for the "budget" watchers eye and buying my first 6link i was really hopping to get better result then what im have atm. I can clear trash very easy most of the time with 1 shot but single target and killing any unique enemy or boss bacicly becomes dark souls to me.
This is my POB (https://pastebin.com/SYrVEM8S)
This a video before i did my "majors upgrades(watchers eye,6lin,new rare jewels,tombfist) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOBMZvKYIRM]


And this is me today gettin frustared killing metamorph for 10 min
[Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIFUYDSaqIY]
[Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJOhQdU5Bk&t]
[part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GsJo2lcWa0&t]

Heya dude, that metamorph's energy shield straight didn't drop hey, brutal.
The most glaring things I see is Damage on full life and Ice bite supporting barrage. Ice bite is a standalone for Ice shot, for single target you want to socket as though you're not going to be at full hp consistently nor killing to proc ice bite through barrage.
The gems I would strongly strongly suggest as a replacement is Added cold damage and Cold pen support. That would up your damage immensely.

Also consider getting a point in Vaal Pact in the bottom of the tree which helps in face tanking bosses with barrage. From your video I saw your placed yourself quite far from the boss meaning the spread from barrage projectiles massively lowers your damage. It's understandable given your survivability. To aid in that I suggest swapping one of your gems for Vaal Grace (only use the vaal version) and potentially using a jade flask instead of Atziri's promise. Also strongly recommend going Frost bomb which doesn't require any links or quality as it baseline lowers life regen by 75% and cold resist by 25% (that's almost as good as a bonus cold pen link!).

Other than that you've itemised well, now it's time to invest for the same types of gear but with juicy mods attached to it. For example, buy an evasion based (silken hood is pretty high evasion) which already has a barrage enchant (preferrably bonus projectile), then use a pristine + frigid fossil to get a high life, -9% nearby enemy frost resist roll. Including resonators you would only expect to spend about ~12c per try. In my earlier weeks I was lucky enough to spend less than 50c so you can potentially buy a base for multiple ex and spend less than an ex on the fossils. Obviously compromise with a different enchant if it's out of your budget. Assassin's mark increased curse effect, Barrage 40% dmg are good alternatives.

Perhaps swap your annointment out for consitution. Personally i'd recommend you go for more of an evasion setup rather than full on hp mods. That means Fractal thoughts, evasion gloves with %dmg with hits against chilled/frozen instead of tombfists, using regrets for more evasion nodes.

But yeah decent itemisation so far, and if you take away anything I'd definitely say for your barrage setup, swap Damage on full life + Ice bite for Cold pen and Added cold. You'll most likely see drastic changes simply from that.

Can someone please help me out with my gear? I can't get past level 91 and I keep dying to t15-t16 boss' and metamorphs. Here's my POB: https://pastebin.com/9ymr7T9A

@horriblesubs

I'm not at my PC atm and don't have access to PoB but some quick thoughts:

Surviving T16s bosses and Metas at your lvl of gear isn't that easy since you haven't gone for the full dmg spec (onslaught path, dmg on Gear) and lack the survivability as well. It's probably easier to burst things down first and get the survivability later.
The gem setup looks OK, but you should

-quality up your flasks
-get an anointment (I Unserstand that you don't want to waste golden oils on that ammu but just anoint some cheap dmg node instead)
- get some dmg on gloves (at least rares with attack speed + preferably cold conv or a good conqueror Mod.. or +1 Frenzy tombfist if you can res elsewhere)