[3.20] Ice Dancing Queen - Icestorm/Cyclone/CI - Viable For Everything

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NuclearCha0s wrote:
Thanks for the tip. It's true, when you add everything up it looks like occultist is better than elementalist. DMG wise I disagree with some of the reasoning slightly but it's not good enough to pick it.

Any idea if this build can reach much higher dmg than what is showcased here? I played CoC Ice Nova last league and I'd love it if you could reach that type of dmg with 50-100ex, just because the build is so cool otherwise.



lets be clear about something,the build got heavly nerfed right before heist.

the build is still amazing and if u invest into it u can melt pretty much everything with 15k es

the build is very good in the early and the more you invest like any attruibute stacker the more u get rewered
First I want to say I'm big fan of this build. Just wanted to ask if there's possibility to get occultist tree starter version of this build. I mean version without clusters that I can start league and swap to current Occultist tree later. Cheers dude.
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phantom_god wrote:

lets be clear about something,the build got heavly nerfed right before heist.

the build is still amazing and if u invest into it u can melt pretty much everything with 15k es

the build is very good in the early and the more you invest like any attruibute stacker the more u get rewered


Like I said, I can spend about 100ex on it this upcoming league. That should be enough for some min-maxing. My question about dmg, more simply put, is the following:

Do you get a lot more damage with ~100ex invested than the showcase from OP? Let's take Hydra or even Sirus video for example. In that showcase the damage is too low for my comfort, but he did have low gear there. I'm just wondering how much it scales from there.
Last edited by NuclearCha0s on Jan 13, 2021, 11:17:07 AM
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phantom_god wrote:
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NuclearCha0s wrote:
Thanks for the tip. It's true, when you add everything up it looks like occultist is better than elementalist. DMG wise I disagree with some of the reasoning slightly but it's not good enough to pick it.

Any idea if this build can reach much higher dmg than what is showcased here? I played CoC Ice Nova last league and I'd love it if you could reach that type of dmg with 50-100ex, just because the build is so cool otherwise.



lets be clear about something,the build got heavly nerfed right before heist.

the build is still amazing and if u invest into it u can melt pretty much everything with 15k es

the build is very good in the early and the more you invest like any attruibute stacker the more u get rewered


Indeed and with the 5 storm limit still being a thing.
The upper limit to the build, which isn't bad by any measure is 5 to 13 million boss dps depending on the boss size.

So it is not going to get near a CoC ice nova in damage. It used to be up there with it before heist.

But we're still talking 1.5-3 million boss dps (depending on size as always) with less than an exalted (Astralmentis + Stampede) worth of gear while still having good energy shield.
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phantom_god wrote:
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NuclearCha0s wrote:
Thanks for the tip. It's true, when you add everything up it looks like occultist is better than elementalist. DMG wise I disagree with some of the reasoning slightly but it's not good enough to pick it.

Any idea if this build can reach much higher dmg than what is showcased here? I played CoC Ice Nova last league and I'd love it if you could reach that type of dmg with 50-100ex, just because the build is so cool otherwise.



lets be clear about something,the build got heavly nerfed right before heist.

the build is still amazing and if u invest into it u can melt pretty much everything with 15k es

the build is very good in the early and the more you invest like any attruibute stacker the more u get rewered


Not the whole story :-) The build got nerfed a lot of times. The leech nerf leagues bevor was really hard, the nerf to only use 2 split jewels killed it on its best stage BUT the community with lingen breken kelvyn lilianmarius and others found somtimes strange ways to bring it back.

Its not the 4 ex kill all content build it was. But also with its stage last league i first time got 40/40 (playing since closed beta)and lvl 100. If youre a good player like mathil or darkee you can kill whole contend with every build.
If youre a dump player like me this build is for you. Its a easy build with scaling till league ends.
But the best is the community behind this build. You see more as 500 pages and its not the first tree with so many pages. Mostly ALL questians i had was answerd in this tree. THATS the biggest advantage for me with this build. The community behind it is insane.
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phantom_god wrote:
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NuclearCha0s wrote:
Thanks for the tip. It's true, when you add everything up it looks like occultist is better than elementalist. DMG wise I disagree with some of the reasoning slightly but it's not good enough to pick it.

Any idea if this build can reach much higher dmg than what is showcased here? I played CoC Ice Nova last league and I'd love it if you could reach that type of dmg with 50-100ex, just because the build is so cool otherwise.



lets be clear about something,the build got heavly nerfed right before heist.

the build is still amazing and if u invest into it u can melt pretty much everything with 15k es

the build is very good in the early and the more you invest like any attruibute stacker the more u get rewered


Not the whole story :-) The build got nerfed a lot of times. The leech nerf leagues bevor was really hard, the nerf to only use 2 split jewels killed it on its best stage BUT the community with lingen breken kelvyn lilianmarius and others found somtimes strange ways to bring it back.

Its not the 4 ex kill all content build it was. But also with its stage last league i first time got 40/40 (playing since closed beta)and lvl 100. If youre a good player like mathil or darkee you can kill whole contend with every build.
If youre a dump player like me this build is for you. Its a easy build with scaling till league ends.
But the best is the community behind this build. You see more as 500 pages and its not the first tree with so many pages. Mostly ALL questians i had was answerd in this tree. THATS the biggest advantage for me with this build. The community behind it is insane.


good work :P
The skill definitely needs a buff.

I've moved to SSF play now and I find it more relevant to compare the builds viability this way.

I've tested the build in 2 leagues SSF. I first tried it out in Delirium and were able to complete a full 20 waves of Simulacrum (might've died last wave don't remember but the random nature of mods make it sometimes harder). It certainly is harder to acquire the specific gear we want, but gearing felt possible to improve progressively AFAI recall.

Currently with Heist the nerfs to storm limit & initial hit cast speed created a hardcoded limitation to how fast you can clear even with good investment. The single target boss dmg - more relevant this league with bosskilling in focus - it received the biggest nerf. To increase the dmg output I would need to sacrifice defences so much that the balance would tip off the scale and the build would be less viable in terms of survivability. This is what makes other builds viable, they have enough damage so that they can invest passives into multiple stable defensive layers - or go to very high damage outputs in SC trade league.

I'd call it that the build would be more flexible even if the current damage per hit was reduced, but the storm limit raised.
For the Occultist project, there are 2 biggest questions right now:

1. Resists.

The best trees so far spend extra skill points (compared to Ascendant) to get the resists maxed. A simple question: if there was a tree notable that gave 15% all res for 2 points, would you take it? For the Occultist, the answer seems to be "Hell, Yes!". So then it should simply go with Alira. If your endgame gear happens to have enough resistances, you can always respec the Bandits to 2 skill points. It's actually a matter of one VERY good ring with an extra 15% all res mod (e.g. a Heist base with 4 suffixes).

2. Stun immunity.

Since Malediction no longer requires taking Profane Bloom, the choice here is between Vile Bastion and Profane Bloom. The clear speed of the newly buffed explosions looks very nice. But then you have to spend 3 skill points on getting either Lucidity or Unwavering Stance. And the main target of the Ritual league are the boss fights.

If you don't focus on the clear speed, Vile Bastion + 3 skill points should make Occultist a tougher boss killer than Ascendant. She has full immunity to all nasty stuff plus the additional layers of defense (enemies do less damage and get periodically frozen). The base configuration for guaranteed success is Vile Bastion.

And then we can experiment and explore the options with Profane Bloom. How bad is partial stun immunity really? To get stunned, you need to get hit hard enough by a physical damage hit. This build has 18% block and ~45% evade chance, all nearby enemies are blind, Lucidity gives 40% stun avoidance while cycloning, and the final check after all other calculations gives you 50% chance to ignore stun because you have ES. And even when you do get hit, the damage is heavily mitigated.

How often would you actually get stunned? I intend to run some tests and see how big of an issue stun really is. It's entirely possible that going with Profane Bloom instead of Vile Bastion will work just fine.
Last edited by Kelvynn on Jan 13, 2021, 1:07:46 PM
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Kelvynn wrote:
For the Occultist project, there are 2 biggest questions right now:

2. Stun immunity.
Spoiler

Since Malediction no longer requires taking Profane Bloom, the choice here is between Vile Bastion and Profane Bloom. The clear speed of the newly buffed explosions looks very nice. But then you have to spend 3 skill points on getting either Lucidity or Unwavering Stance. And the main target of the Ritual league are the boss fights.

If you don't focus on the clear speed, Vile Bastion + 3 skill points should make Occultist a tougher boss killer than Ascendant. She has full immunity to all nasty stuff plus the additional layers of defense (enemies do less damage and get periodically frozen). The base configuration for guaranteed success is Vile Bastion.

And then we can experiment and explore the options with Profane Bloom. How bad is partial stun immunity really? To get stunned, you need to get hit hard enough by a physical damage hit. This build has 18% block and ~45% evade chance, all nearby enemies are blind, Lucidity gives 40% stun avoidance while cycloning, and the final check after all other calculations gives you 50% chance to ignore stun because you have ES. And even when you do get hit, the damage is heavily mitigated.

How often would you actually get stunned? I intend to run some tests and see how big of an issue stun really is. It's entirely possible that going with Profane Bloom instead of Vile Bastion will work just fine.


Don't forget that any hit can stun. This includes spells and they cannot be evaded. The staff only gives attack block. A good example is atziri/uber atziri where you respecc into Elementalist for the reflect immunity as Ascendant. In there the spark skeletons stun you almost constantly. Anything that hits multiple times, say Porcupines, are also likely to stun despite some evade/block.

The problem is that stun will interrupt you from channelling cyclone and thus casting. It also creates the weird desynch that apparently can happen even in lockstep mode. But as someone who has to play predictive after entering into maps this would be extremely annoying as you can very well end up being half a screen away bodyblocked by a pack.

I'd say that Vile Bastion is what you'd want most of the time and perhaps experimenting with Profane Bloom when you want to repeatedly farm some specific mob dense maps after getting a safe amount of defensive/offensive stats compared to those areas - along with Soul of the Brine King.
Last edited by LiNGeN on Jan 13, 2021, 2:33:01 PM
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LiNGeN wrote:
"
Kelvynn wrote:
For the Occultist project, there are 2 biggest questions right now:

2. Stun immunity.
Spoiler

Since Malediction no longer requires taking Profane Bloom, the choice here is between Vile Bastion and Profane Bloom. The clear speed of the newly buffed explosions looks very nice. But then you have to spend 3 skill points on getting either Lucidity or Unwavering Stance. And the main target of the Ritual league are the boss fights.

If you don't focus on the clear speed, Vile Bastion + 3 skill points should make Occultist a tougher boss killer than Ascendant. She has full immunity to all nasty stuff plus the additional layers of defense (enemies do less damage and get periodically frozen). The base configuration for guaranteed success is Vile Bastion.

And then we can experiment and explore the options with Profane Bloom. How bad is partial stun immunity really? To get stunned, you need to get hit hard enough by a physical damage hit. This build has 18% block and ~45% evade chance, all nearby enemies are blind, Lucidity gives 40% stun avoidance while cycloning, and the final check after all other calculations gives you 50% chance to ignore stun because you have ES. And even when you do get hit, the damage is heavily mitigated.

How often would you actually get stunned? I intend to run some tests and see how big of an issue stun really is. It's entirely possible that going with Profane Bloom instead of Vile Bastion will work just fine.


Don't forget that any hit can stun. This includes spells and they cannot be evaded. The staff only gives attack block. A good example is atziri/uber atziri where you respecc into Elementalist for the reflect immunity as Ascendant. In there the spark skeletons stun you almost constantly. Anything that hits multiple times, say Porcupines, are also likely to stun despite some evade/block.

The problem is that stun will interrupt you from channelling cyclone and thus casting. It also creates the weird desynch that apparently can happen even in lockstep mode. But as someone who has to play predictive after entering into maps this would be extremely annoying as you can very well end up being half a screen away bodyblocked by a pack.

I'd say that Vile Bastion is what you'd want most of the time and perhaps experimenting with Profane Bloom when you want to repeatedly farm some specific mob dense maps after getting a safe amount of defensive/offensive stats compared to those areas - along with Soul of the Brine King.


To compound on the stun part, remember that stun is based on life unless you have either Skyforth boots or Valyrium ring.
Since we are CI we have 1 life and so, any hit that does damage that actually hits and is not mitigated by chance to avoid stun, will stun you no matter how hard it hits.

Some quick math on Lucidity tells us this:

Attacks melee or projectile assuming we have blinded the monster will look like this:
47% chance to hit
40% chance to avoid (Lucidity)
50% chance to ignore (Energy Shield inherent benefit)

0.47*0.6*0.5 = 14.1% of all attacks will stun you.

Spells with Lucidity:
100% chance to hit
40% chance to avoid (Lucidity)
50% chance to ignore (Energy Shield inherent benefit)

1*0.6*0.5 = 30% of all spells will stun you.


With the average amount of stuff thrown around that hits us, that is a lot of time stunned, and remember that if you get stunned, Lucidity falls away, meaning that 23.% of attacks and 50% of all spells will stun.
Forcing us to take Brine king so as to not be perma stunned after the first one gets through.

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