CI and stun

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Moosifer wrote:

I honestly don't get these threads, you are just asking for the game to be easier and not accepting that every advantage comes with a disadvantage.

CI's disadvantage is having 1 life.

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Moosifer wrote:

CI can use leech, regen and is generally a larger pool than life, more gear dependent so you can use passives else where. The drawback is dealing with stun, status ailments and not having flasks when spots get tough (but you have a larger pool so being one shot without escape is not as common as it is with life).

Leech, not without a passive
regen, not without another passive
Larger pool is just wrong.

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Moosifer wrote:

People are asking for stun/ailments to be based off ES and other threads ask for ES flasks, this makes ES into life when it's not.

Not asking for ES flasks, no one in this thread asked for ES flasks, including in your rebuttal comments from another thread is useless

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Moosifer wrote:

If you add these things in there comes a point where all builds would be better with CI. As you get extremely high end gear you can have a very large health pool, because of it you'd never be stunned and could you regen it in every way life user could. There ends up being no difference between ES and life.

No, you end up with a competitive build to Life. If there is no difference between Life and ES, then that gives players the option of choosing one over the other, this game is about giving players options, ins't it?

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Moosifer wrote:

The problem with that is ES is a defensive mechanic, it should be in line with armor and evasion.

But it ins't..you see, that's the problem.

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Moosifer wrote:

If you stacked only armor and no life it would come with the same drawbacks. The real problem is how ineffective armor is compared to ES so no one would ever do such a thing therefore no one is complaining.

But if you didn't only stack armour, and added life, you get the full benefit of that life pool to keep you alive...

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Yxalitis wrote:

The downside of taking CI, and I'm not sure why people seem to overlook this...is that you HAVE ONLY ONE LIFE POINT!

ONE!

And the upside of having one HP is you no longer require HP flasks. Replace them with QS flasks or Granites or Topaz/Ruby etc. We may even see Diamond flasks make a return in the future if resources can be made available to sort out the balance issues.

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Yxalitis wrote:

"Less passive nodes required"

Really...why?

Because with ES, (and CI), you get a much larger base of ehp from equipment rather than from the tree.. You also, (now), get a real sweetener in a single node that offers 20% more ES.

That one node alone gave me an additional 1K ES and this is while wearing hybrid Arm/ES equipment.

There are pure ES builds out there with 10K+ ES, think I even recall a 12K ES build in one of the subforums. It's just true man....less nodes required to get the equiv value of HP but it's also justifiable because of the downside of not being able to use HP flasks.

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Yxalitis wrote:

" Complete immunity to Chaos damage means more freedom choosing items for all equipment slots"
Replace "chaos res" for "ES%" and "+ES"

No man.

It's Chaos Res and HP and +Armour and %Armour (or EV if you prefer).

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Yxalitis wrote:

"No requirement for HP pots means more options for filling flask slots."
Which also ignore that we have no mitigation for ES loss, other then running away.

Yup...I agree with that one, (unless taking GR). It's one of the downsides of CI which should be considered before committing to CI.

Point is though, if you don't like the downsides then don't click on the node. HP or HP+ES builds are just as viable....they just have a different set of upsides and downsides.

You don't want to be stunned -> there's an amulet and a passive ability that make you "unstunnable"

You don't want to be frozen -> there are boots and a ring that make "unfreezable"

You don't want to be shocked -> there's a cap that makes you "unshockable"

You don't want to be set on fire -> guess what... there's an item for that too.


Not just that, but having ES alone reduces your stun chance by 50%.

You want easy gameplay, go find another game.

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Yxalitis wrote:

CI's disadvantage is having 1 life.

With a large ES pool in front of it.

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Leech, not without a passive
regen, not without another passive
Larger pool is just wrong.

Yes, passives that turn a DEFENSE into LIFE. If we could turn armor or evasion into life I'd pick up some other passives to make it better.

Also, not sure if I've missed some new item mods but I didn't know you could get 900 life on a chest, sure can get that much ES though. So you are just wrong.

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Not asking for ES flasks, no one in this thread asked for ES flasks, including in your rebuttal comments from another thread is useless

Don't be a cunt. I'm bringing up a suggestion someone made elsewhere because the only difference between ES and life at this time is not being able to use flasks and stun/ailments. It might not be directly related to the small point you are making but it relates to the point I'm making which is ES should not be the same as life.

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No, you end up with a competitive build to Life. If there is no difference between Life and ES, then that gives players the option of choosing one over the other, this game is about giving players options, ins't it?

It's not competitive, it's the same fucking thing at that point. It's not an option as to whether you are taking ES or life, it's an option as to whether you want you globe to be silver or red. You are the one arguing for less options because you don't want ES to be a unique mechanic, you want it to function the same as another.

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Moosifer wrote:

The problem with that is ES is a defensive mechanic, it should be in line with armor and evasion.

But it ins't..you see, that's the problem.

Yes, it's much better because it absorbs every shot rather than missing some or doing very little against hard ones.

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But if you didn't only stack armour, and added life, you get the full benefit of that life pool to keep you alive...

Yes, if you STACKED life. If you were able to stack 100-200k armor and 1k life was all you needed to survive, you'd still deal with the stuns a CI user has.

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f0xx wrote:

You want easy gameplay, go find another game.

Thing is? ARPGs ARE easy gameplay. There is no strategy in most fights, you stack the best defenses and go smash. And if the best defense is dodging, or ranged combat, that's what you do. Congratulations, Easy Mode achieved.

There are few solutions to stuns stun is always 350ms bring it with stun recovery below 300ms and now stuns at all. And yes it is part of mechanic of CI requiring either finding gear gving immunity to status effects, or ways dealing with status effects. As advice don't stay in mob of raging monkeys and you wouldn't be stunned as often. even though 20% more, seems too low, but it good enough to start concidering CI as option. And let me hint you stun is not worst throuble there is puncture, flicker strike,burning,shocks, and freeze. If you are so preplexed with stuns get evasion. 50% evasion, and 60% stun chance with ES gives,you 30% chance to be stunned.

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Moosifer wrote:

Don't be a cxxt.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Velrik wrote:

when u have 1 hp with CI EVERYTHING stuns you.

This is not true.
CI calculates stun, and elemental status ailments, based on the 'actual' life value you would have, ignoring CI's setting it to one. These things never use 1 life in these calculations.

Taking CI does not in any way make you more vulnerable to stuns or elemental status ailments than the same build would be without CI.

While the pre-CI status in calculation makes sense, it is still far to punitive to use theoretical HP of CI characters. The reason is that by commiting to CI, you need to focus on ES nodes to be able to survive. So with CI, you must focus on % ES nodes but also follow the Path of HP nodes. It seems to me that CI just makes the life more miserable for players that choose to follow it because they still have to get reasonable HP base and also max out on ES node to actually survive. What is worse is the fact that while HP-based characters get direct benefit every time they take %HP node in form of more HP, same %HP node for CI user will have no direct impact on survival and only indirect or random effect of less stun or status ailments when such thing happens.

I would love to see a reason GGG developers did not use CI values, that could easily be tweaked by applying certain coefficient if ES values are too high, in the stun and status ailment calculation. Why, oh why?

Bazz, Mossifer:

Look, I can understand where you're coming from, I've made dozens of viable builds, both with CI, other with life, others still with both. ES is a defensive mechanic, however with a huge difference in comparison with armour and evasion (those two allow some sort of defense, while CI is ... in effect, a buffer for your life ... which with CI is as close to non existant as possible lol).

another issue is that unless you're a CI shadow, you're going to have to go a long way to help yourself on the tree (see below).

If changing the formula to include a small percentage of ES isn't feasible, then another solution is necessary. how about the following:

Include a new ring of passives (somewhere in the witch section, that way templar, Witch and Shadow has easy enough access) with another "Crystal skin" and some avoid stun / avoid status nodes.

The problem is the "all or nothing" aspect of CI, which isn't suffered by other builds. Yes there are pros to it and cons.. But this CON shouldn't be there. It is a flawed mechanic that can be changed

With CI, your ES basically becomes your Life This is the only instance where this happens and I wouldn't have any issue with stuns/ailments etc, if the formula wasn't entirely based on effective life.


Note: I have yet to make a CI on OB (due to the changes form CB). I'm debating making one now, but with the changes made (inc. act 3, res. penalties, avg end game lvls, mob resists + damage changes), the "stun/ailment" aspect coupled with the changes... still leave a semi-sour taste in my mouth ..compared to CB.

ty for reading

Seriously this it not a CI only issue! Almost no ES focused character like to take hp nodes. For example take a low life build, do you really think they are stacking anymore hp than you are with CI? And even the standard none CI none PA build dont like stacking hp more than what they need for taking some chaos damage. So even they will not be stunned for many milliseconds less than you are.

And if you really think CI is bad don't take it. There are many nodes worse that you do not take just add CI to them.