EXP LOSS POLL

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Crackmonster wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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PyroMule wrote:

By the way, when you mis-understand and mis-quote someone it makes you look bad.

Loving the irony there.

I obviously was referring to the xp penalty on death, nothing more.

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PyroMule wrote:

Now focus. ONE THING I'm claiming he's wrong about. He's held this belief for years and even people on his team have pushed back against him on this. I know for a fact they lose players due to the exp penalty.

Source ?
I'm not expecting you to be able to back that claim anyway, just pointing it out.


You don't know anything, and you have no clue how many player they would eventually loose if there was no penalty, or one that isn't consequential enough.

Source?

Friends, seen it happen.

Felt it inside myself.


Keep holding on to your false claims.

Exactly. This guy has a comprehension problem. I clearly stated I don't know how many players they lose, yet he says I don't know, as if that's some negative. I actually , don't know... that's the point. GGG needs to figure it out, because there IS outrage, and there ARE real stories of friends we know.

GGG also has knowledge that if they let players play "too hard" content with their weak builds, the players stop playing. That's why they invented the mapping system. - SOURCE: Chris Wilson youtube statements at the game developers confrence.

My source for Chris Wilson saying the exp penalty has been a source of disagreement on his team, but he has reasons for keeping it, so that players who make it to 100 have that elite sense of self-importance (not exactly a quote) -- source is either the youtube game confrence or a baeclast video. I'm not going to dig it up.

Anyways the point is, whether you believe it or not, the GGG team is debating this issue, and they know it's a problem of some kind. I just think they don't know how big of a problem it is. It's not direct data they can gather. It's an "exit survey" they'd have to coordinate, which they won't. Otherwise, they need to just read these posts, and consider if these posts are a small minority, or if they are the real majority of users.

It's quite possible that the exp penalty is one of the major reasons people quit the league after a month or less. That's about the time it takes them to get into harder content and find out they can't progress because of the penalty.

Sending players into a frustration/penalty loop is CLEARLY bad. The reward stimulation loop is textbook game theory. frustration/penalty is how you make people STOP doing things... They are either going to STOP (their bad build, playing hard content, play more boring content) or STOP YOUR GAME.

Now consider that people tend to do the easiest thing. The easiest thing is to just stop playing the game, than to fix their ingame problems... especially when gamers percieve their problems to be unfair and unmitigatable with their build... thus you hear the "one-shots", "off screen" "lag, bugs" complaints.

The players who tell everyone to fix their build, the arrogance is clear. They think they know you build, then tell you how to play better... but maybe, JUST MAYBE the "one shots offscreen lag and bugs" complaints are REAL?

MAYBE, just think about it... MAYBE the complaint is VALID and REAL and worth considering.

That's the problem with the trolls in this thread. They give no credit or validation to the concept that there is ANY PROBLEM TO BE ADDRESSED.

And I say GOOD. GGG are smart. When they read this thread they're going to see very clearly what section of the market they've been catering to, and have to consider if they REALLY want to keep placating those individuals, or create an environment that is still difficult to master, but isn't repulsive, turning players away from their game.

A game designed to be played forever, perhaps should avoid extremely frustrating mechanics. Perhaps it should be designed around the FACT that there are lag times, server bugs, client crashes etc... and seek to remedy these problems to compensate and reward their players in a fair way, to retain them...

Just ideas.

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PyroMule wrote:

Spoiler

Exactly. This guy has a comprehension problem. I clearly stated I don't know how many players they lose, yet he says I don't know, as if that's some negative. I actually , don't know... that's the point. GGG needs to figure it out, because there IS outrage, and there ARE real stories of friends we know.

GGG also has knowledge that if they let players play "too hard" content with their weak builds, the players stop playing. That's why they invented the mapping system. - SOURCE: Chris Wilson youtube statements at the game developers confrence.

My source for Chris Wilson saying the exp penalty has been a source of disagreement on his team, but he has reasons for keeping it, so that players who make it to 100 have that elite sense of self-importance (not exactly a quote) -- source is either the youtube game confrence or a baeclast video. I'm not going to dig it up.

Anyways the point is, whether you believe it or not, the GGG team is debating this issue, and they know it's a problem of some kind. I just think they don't know how big of a problem it is. It's not direct data they can gather. It's an "exit survey" they'd have to coordinate, which they won't. Otherwise, they need to just read these posts, and consider if these posts are a small minority, or if they are the real majority of users.

It's quite possible that the exp penalty is one of the major reasons people quit the league after a month or less. That's about the time it takes them to get into harder content and find out they can't progress because of the penalty.

Sending players into a frustration/penalty loop is CLEARLY bad. The reward stimulation loop is textbook game theory. frustration/penalty is how you make people STOP doing things... They are either going to STOP (their bad build, playing hard content, play more boring content) or STOP YOUR GAME.

Now consider that people tend to do the easiest thing. The easiest thing is to just stop playing the game, than to fix their ingame problems... especially when gamers percieve their problems to be unfair and unmitigatable with their build... thus you hear the "one-shots", "off screen" "lag, bugs" complaints.

The players who tell everyone to fix their build, the arrogance is clear. They think they know you build, then tell you how to play better... but maybe, JUST MAYBE the "one shots offscreen lag and bugs" complaints are REAL?

MAYBE, just think about it... MAYBE the complaint is VALID and REAL and worth considering.

That's the problem with the trolls in this thread. They give no credit or validation to the concept that there is ANY PROBLEM TO BE ADDRESSED.

And I say GOOD. GGG are smart. When they read this thread they're going to see very clearly what section of the market they've been catering to, and have to consider if they REALLY want to keep placating those individuals, or create an environment that is still difficult to master, but isn't repulsive, turning players away from their game.

A game designed to be played forever, perhaps should avoid extremely frustrating mechanics. Perhaps it should be designed around the FACT that there are lag times, server bugs, client crashes etc... and seek to remedy these problems to compensate and reward their players in a fair way, to retain them...

Just ideas.

Now that's what I call a wholesome post.
+1 there, definitely +1.

It's the same thing which WoW struggled with, de-valuation of the reward-system and hence players being unhappy and leaving.

Right now we got too many 'spikey' situations to be enjoyable, especially not if progress is on the line. Taking longer to reach lvl 100 is fine as long as you don't fell 'ripped off' in the process. Frustration to a small degree is enhancing an experience, make it too much though and it has an adverse effect, much like anything generally.

Well obviously there must be no issues with XP penalty, since this thread is only 40 pages long and there are like, what, 50 other similar threads.

Oh, and to suggest 'xp penalty doesn't push anyone away from the game' is silly considering those opposed to any change have openly stated others should leave and find another game if they feel so.

But you know, whatever. I'm just lurking here, waiting for WoW Classic to be released soon.

ps. not every 'flaw' should always be fixed in a game. WoW Classic is actually a great example of this.

My only problem with EXP loss is that if you have wonky internet connection like me I die to small hiccups in connection and i can't realy do anything with that and will probably never get to 100 because of this.

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vmt80 wrote:

Well obviously there must be no issues with XP penalty, since this thread is only 40 pages long and there are like, what, 50 other similar threads.

Oh, and to suggest 'xp penalty doesn't push anyone away from the game' is silly considering those opposed to any change have openly stated others should leave and find another game if they feel so.

But you know, whatever. I'm just lurking here, waiting for WoW Classic to be released soon.

ps. not every 'flaw' should always be fixed in a game. WoW Classic is actually a great example of this.

if you're not even playing the game and you're waiting for classic why even bother in giving an opinion on a game you soon will be no longer playing?

the addiction will get you back in time..

nobody leaves a game forever.

your 'flaw' that you like is mostly aimed towards some 'sense' of 'achievement' which these days is worth next to 0 when you can clear this content in much less levels.

When I level past 90+ in this game, it feels rewarding. Because i achieved something. Is that reward better than just being able to level my character in a sensible manner? I HIGHLY doubt it. I stop caring about my characters when they plateau at 92-95 because leveling at that point is tedious.

Those who reach 100 seem to me, as a casual player, like they must be using XP leech groups, guilds that pool resources immensely, or just do basic content that yields the highest XP/hour in a safe manner. Those all sound just awful, and I don't want to do them.

Maps at high level already yield such a small percent of your level, that it would take a long time to get to 100 as a casual player. I'm even wary of calling myself casual, as I do spend a large amount of time playing. I would stay in a league longer if I was able to make meaningful progress without feeling like a random setback takes away three days of grinding.

Is that how most people feel? I can't say. What I can say is that that's how all of my friends who play this game feel.

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Xystre wrote:

if you're not even playing the game and you're waiting for classic why even bother in giving an opinion on a game you soon will be no longer playing?

I guess it's to give feedback, although if someone at GGG is reading the forums, I suppose he might have already read my opinion on it. If they really want to have feedback, probably it's not just those who stayed whose opinion should matter.

Oh, I've not been playing PoE since -what- last christmas time? It's not like anything regarding DP has changed since then fundamentally.

(Reasons I left included other issues with PoE also, even if I felt overtly punishing DP was among them.)

In theory, I like that there's exp loss because it means you can't just brute force level up by investing more and more time. It puts an element of skill into leveling, because you need to gain EXP faster than you lose it. In other words, you need to not die much.

In reality though, this just means avoiding risky content, and playing a more boring way. XP leeching and all kinds of completely risk-free breach or map runs are used to level up while never being hit by the penalty. Because of this, I'd actually be in favor of the penalty's removal. All it does is steer people towards boring and risk free content so they can keep their precious leveling progress.

Everyone i have gotten into the game has quit because of the xp loss.

I usually quit at around 90-91. Already deleted two chars this league