Poe has outgrown Trade

It is possible to do auctions in a right way. D3 did not do it right

1. too many bugs in the auctions, from generating gold, cloning items to exploits
2. paying gold, having gold cap
3. adding real money into that mess

I played couple games where auctions worked, WoW, GW2 to mention some specifics.
Yes, it is possible to monopolize certain items, but it is overall better experience than player interaction for regular mass shopping.

Every item has a stipulated min and max price that can be buffed or nerfed by the devs = Monoploy goes out the window, no retarded prices or scams.

"

Marxone wrote:

It is possible to do auctions in a right way. D3 did not do it right

1. too many bugs in the auctions, from generating gold, cloning items to exploits
2. paying gold, having gold cap
3. adding real money into that mess

I played couple games where auctions worked, WoW, GW2 to mention some specifics.
Yes, it is possible to monopolize certain items, but it is overall better experience than player interaction for regular mass shopping.

Games where the vast majority of items are bind on pickup is not comparable in any meaningful way what-so-ever.
We dont even have bind on equip so with stable prices there would not even be an actual cost of buying an item and the market would be flooded.
There would have to be some serious restrictions to an AH here, and people would complain about them just in the same way they do about the current restrictions.

"Compare two hypothetical cities. In the first one, access to a hospital is very difficult. The majority of doctors that you don't need at that time cannot tend to other people. In the second one, access to a hospital is very easy. Many of the doctors you don't need service from give services to other people that need it, while their doctors help you when you need them too. In the second game, because of free market, you have a much higher availability useful professionals. While that sounds great if you want instant medical assistance, in reality it means that the second city either has to have less doctors relative to the first, or it ends up being a whole lot easier and less challenging to get medical assistance."

Just change a few things and you can see that their thought process was just so backwards.

If they want the game to be challenging, then make the gameplay challenging instead of having all content be trivialized by "end-game gear"

The simple solution to the whole thing is making spending currency more valuable than hoarding it. And there's the solution to your whole economy problem.

The problem is precisely this: "The acquisition of items is why people play Action RPGs. " -Chris Wilson, 2017

So, apparently, no one plays ARPGs for the role-playing element, the strategy, the mechanical challenge, the partying.

The state of the game is: "huge overcomplicated slot machine." And, of course, if you allow easier trading, it will collapse. But this would only happen if they and the mayority of the players play PoE like it's Candy Crush, keep going at it this way.

But I wonder if it would collapse or over-inflate if evveryone used their currency to craft interesting stuff like a +2 Melee Gems/+2 Support Gems/Spectral Spirits Maelstrom Staff. "Unique" stuff like that burns through currency, instead of just "getting more DPS". The sheer amount of possibilities would deflate the currency in a heartbeat if they gave those ideas a little more marketing.

Just my 2Cents. I'mma go back to slowly, soul-crushingly, mind-numbingly painfully grinding currency for my 0% Ele-Resist Necro. So then I can actually play the game in an interesting way.

If you're getting too many requests you aren't charging enough, its that simple

They can't make a better trade solution unless it involves Premium Stash tabs.

Millions of dollars were spent purchasing these tabs. They aren't going to refund players for these purchases if an in-game AH or other system not involving premium stash tabs is created.

Period.

"

Fruz wrote:

I'm pretty sure that one thing that people do not find 'convenient' is the time needed to trade so ...

Is making people just wait doing nothing considered 'convenient' ?
Nop, I really don't think so.

The point is to tie the currency into the system which doesn't release it as well as the item after a specific amount of time.
Since - unlike the current state - you won't have to interact with it during this time you can do other stuff. Sorting the stash, rolling maps, chatting with people, running a map. Nonetheless you won't be able to progress quicker despite the actual trade-interaction in itself is short and easy.

"

Fruz wrote:

Would people be allowed to do something else (@map, or run whatever content) while 'waiting' ? Then it would make trade far less time-consuming, which pretty much means that it would not take time from players, and would make trading much easier => gear acquisition much easier, pretty much the same as faster trading.

Yes, you're right, though that only counts for the trade-interaction in itself, not for the time until a trade is finished.
This means if we... let's say set the time to 30 minutes... wait for it and run other content we still can't use said items for our progression. This could be a map we need and haven't seen early enough, fossils to craft a specific item, fragments for shaper runs or whatever.
The goal of it purely is to keep people from running what they've got prepared, hence they need to take other venues into consideration for the time or simply wait.

There is literally no difference to now for the actual time-investment in that case, the difference is the type of interaction. Instead of writing 'I wanna by xyz for xyz' over... and over... and over again while getting spammed with the same 'Hey, i wanna buy xyz for xyz' which has been sold 30 minutes ago already is still progress.

And by now... any type of progress compared to the existing system is good.

"

Fruz wrote:

I'm all for not needing to use a web browser to engage with the system ( that could be considered convenience I guess ), but that alone will not change anything regarding people's complaints imho, at least most of them.

Yes, true, though it will solve many existing issues.
An in-game solution while abolishing the trade-API completely would mean that there won't be programs available which can take a VAST chunk of effort away from you.
This levels the playing-field and also hinders price-fixers from doing what they're doing.

Also since an in-game solution uses the database of the game directly rather then parsing it for use outside it'll be instant, this takes care of the issue about people getting spammed long after selling something, or getting messages only 30 minutes after listing it.

"

Sickness wrote:

Please dont pretend you know more about my own opinion than I do.
Fast and easy trading was a really bad thing in D3, what replaced it is completely irrelevant to that point because I formed my opinion before the trade system was replaced.

The basics of economy aren't an opinion though, they have iron-clad rules which don't change.

The only thing which changes is how issues are shifted around, the current system is simply one of the worst-case examples for any economy possible which is still able to function.

"

Sickness wrote:

PoE.trade made trading far easier and faster in PoE, I find the result om that aspect to be simply far less enjoyable and I wish the trade APIs would never have existed. That the playing field may have been uneven is completely irrelevant to that.

Yes, it did make it faster and easier, no, being an un-even playing-field isn't irrelevant.
Automation outside of the client causes those people to have a headstart compared to others, this means they can gather currency more quickly at the beginnning.. which scales swiftly... which allows them to control parts of the market and run around with several mirrors in week 2 with ease. On the other hand to achieve this with 'normal' means of trading at league-start you'll have to invest a lot of time and effort, and then you'll be far behind in terms of content most likely.

This is a hefty disparity and allows price-fixers and RMT-sites to work like they do in regards to PoE... and that's a bad thing.

"

Sickness wrote:

If you want to argue that despite all this making trade even faster and easier in PoE would be a good thing you have a very heavy burden of proof to meet. No one has come close in all the years this discussion have taken place, all I see is posters like you ignoring and handwaving away the very real issues.

You should read my posts again, seemingly you're not the best in intaking information there.

I'll repeat it for you again though:

Frustration =/= hard
Convenient =/= quick

Very very important concept.

A system which is convenient but slow has the same effect as the one we have now which is frustrating and quick. The only difference is the weighting of where the set-back is to stop trades spiraling out of control.

So, exchanging the 20 messages to people without an answer to a single interaction which won't be outdated... but then waiting on the product you bought is a solution which is possible.
Imagine it like this: You need a T16 Phoenix map, you don't have any guardian maps left. Now this is one to buy fairly easy... in the 'new' system it would take 30 minutes. So either you're thinking before you'll need it and keep a good stock... or you're forced to run other content in the meantime, unable to progress further and realize the fears which Christ mentioned in the Trade-Manifesto.

Whole lot of difference between what you read out of my posts.

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Sickness wrote:

Games where the vast majority of items are bind on pickup is not comparable in any meaningful way what-so-ever.

That's why GW2 was mentioned... where that's not the case. Bind on equip mostly, and even legendaries can be bought.

"

Sickness wrote:

We dont even have bind on equip so with stable prices there would not even be an actual cost of buying an item and the market would be flooded.

That's why a type of item-sink needs to be implemented over time, one which doesn't feel punishing but rewarding.

"

Sickness wrote:

There would have to be some serious restrictions to an AH here, and people would complain about them just in the same way they do about the current restrictions.

That's why I'm saying 'alternative trade-solution' and not AH. AH isn't the only way to go after all.

"

InfrnlMssh7 wrote:

Spoiler

"Compare two hypothetical cities. In the first one, access to a hospital is very difficult. The majority of doctors that you don't need at that time cannot tend to other people. In the second one, access to a hospital is very easy. Many of the doctors you don't need service from give services to other people that need it, while their doctors help you when you need them too. In the second game, because of free market, you have a much higher availability useful professionals. While that sounds great if you want instant medical assistance, in reality it means that the second city either has to have less doctors relative to the first, or it ends up being a whole lot easier and less challenging to get medical assistance."

Just change a few things and you can see that their thought process was just so backwards.

If they want the game to be challenging, then make the gameplay challenging instead of having all content be trivialized by "end-game gear"

The simple solution to the whole thing is making spending currency more valuable than hoarding it. And there's the solution to your whole economy problem.

The problem is precisely this: "The acquisition of items is why people play Action RPGs. " -Chris Wilson, 2017

So, apparently, no one plays ARPGs for the role-playing element, the strategy, the mechanical challenge, the partying.

The state of the game is: "huge overcomplicated slot machine." And, of course, if you allow easier trading, it will collapse. But this would only happen if they and the mayority of the players play PoE like it's Candy Crush, keep going at it this way.

But I wonder if it would collapse or over-inflate if evveryone used their currency to craft interesting stuff like a +2 Melee Gems/+2 Support Gems/Spectral Spirits Maelstrom Staff. "Unique" stuff like that burns through currency, instead of just "getting more DPS". The sheer amount of possibilities would deflate the currency in a heartbeat if they gave those ideas a little more marketing.

Just my 2Cents. I'mma go back to slowly, soul-crushingly, mind-numbingly painfully grinding currency for my 0% Ele-Resist Necro. So then I can actually play the game in an interesting way.

Exactly! That's the point.

"

DrB00M wrote:

They can't make a better trade solution unless it involves Premium Stash tabs.

Millions of dollars were spent purchasing these tabs. They aren't going to refund players for these purchases if an in-game AH or other system not involving premium stash tabs is created.

Period.

A brain-dead ape can think up a solution which doesn't require an AH and also involves Premium-Tabs while being overall more convenient.

Someone with a few brain-cells can see that issues will be present if that's done.

And a guy who is a bit smart will be able to work around those issues and create a system which will be overall more enjoyable long-term.

"

The basics of economy aren't an opinion though, they have iron-clad rules which don't change.

The only thing which changes is how issues are shifted around, the current system is simply one of the worst-case examples for any economy possible which is still able to function

The rules of economy does indeed not change, so any solution that ignores the problems I brought up are not viable candidates to me. And this is exactly what people are doing when they are dissmissing the trade manifest etc.

Yes I am sure you can come up with other limitations to trading that keeps it on the same level, but 99% of the people who whine about the current system would use the exact same arguments against the new one. Creating a new system is also a huge risk, it can ruin the game forever essentially.

"

Yes, it did make it faster and easier, no, being an un-even playing-field isn't irrelevant.
Automation outside of the client causes those people to have a headstart compared to others, this means they can gather currency more quickly at the beginnning.. which scales swiftly... which allows them to control parts of the market and run around with several mirrors in week 2 with ease. On the other hand to achieve this with 'normal' means of trading at league-start you'll have to invest a lot of time and effort, and then you'll be far behind in terms of content most likely.

This is a hefty disparity and allows price-fixers and RMT-sites to work like they do in regards to PoE... and that's a bad thing.

It is 100% irrelevant to why dislike the system.

no instant shop ty, also no "auction" house ty

"

Sickness wrote:

Yes I am sure you can come up with other limitations to trading that keeps it on the same level, but 99% of the people who whine about the current system would use the exact same arguments against the new one. Creating a new system is also a huge risk, it can ruin the game forever essentially.

Well, the let's see what people complain about mostly:

'I don't get answers' <--- would be fixed
'Listing is not reliable' <--- Would be fixed
'Price-fixers control the market!' <--- Alleviated to a degree, not fixed though.
'I want to play the game, not sit in the HO and take more time to trade!' <--- Also fixed.

So, those main-concerns we hear over and over again would be addressed at least, this WILL silence the majority of complains. What it won't silence is the new issues GGG will (I guarantee it!) implement when changing the system in any way. As we can see with animation-cancelling and the fairly... let#s call it 'interesting' way they implemented it. Good base-idea, bad execution, a tell-tale sign of GGG-work sadly, would wish it wasn't this way though.