Poe has outgrown Trade
" No that is exactly how stuff goes. If they are to gamble with the future of the game they need some solid evidence. There is no economic theory to apply to compared the differenses between the unpredictable road block of not having people answer and the reliable road block of having timed trades. The only applicable law is the law of unforseen consequenses which is why I am hesitant to do anything, especially considering the fact that the vast majority of people who are currently comlaining will still be complaining until they get their fast and easy trading. |
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" Yes, absolutely true, you're right. Hence why I wrote the sarcastic part about testing it out. GGG needs to INVEST TIME and RESOURCES into FINDING OUT which solution will work best. The cheapest method is to set up test-servers which people can use. Similar to a race, shorter then a league, less rewards and all items voided afterwards. The systems inside of those are only available there and simply used for test-purposes, the results giving them an actual way to UNDERSTAND how it would AFFECT THE SYSTEMS IN PRACTICE rather then theory. " Yes, because that's not handled in economics... that's handled in game-design itself. Something GGG isn't all that good in anymore as well sadly. First part is the common concept of reward versus effort versus time-investment. Every mechanic in a game needs to have some effort to it, as well as some time-investment. The reward of using any mechanic is based on that amount. High effort required = high reward High time-investment = high reward. Low of both = Little to no reward High on both = very high reward. That's basics there. If you create exceptions then this will lead to disparity, the more situations and the bigger this disparity the further away from an optimal balanced game it'll get. While a mediocre amount of disparity (let#s say 20-40%) will keep the viability of any system existing. This disparity isn't allowed to step over a specific limit... otherwise it'll be the only viable way for progress in an efficient manner, which is a bad thing for diversity of mechanics, less viable ones will be ignored therefore, it has to be taken into consideration each and every time. The second part is how fun or frustrating a mechanic is. A frustrating but easy mechanic won't be used as much compared to an enjoyable but hard one. Also this means that a quick frustrating mechanic will be seen as a bad mechanic by the majority in general... while an enjoyable long one will be seen as a good mechanic in comparison, that one's not about efficiency but perception there. With this in mind we can work out that an enjoyable mechanic which takes a long time to process - even if it actually makes the whole trading even slower then it is now! - will see a positive impact on the stance from the side of the players. They know what to expect after all... something not existing at the moment as it's fast, frustrating and unreliable at best on the other hand. It's why Synthesis felt like utter garbage for most with synthesizing items versus incubators (who have an even bigger disparity of outcome) do feel like a rewarding and enjoyable mechanic. Synthesis offered no feedback on the player for how long it'll take to get a 'decent' drop which even can be used. It also gave no feedback on what could come out or how likely any specific outcome is. On the other hand Incubators do tell you 'X kills until drop'... which even with 100k monster kills you'll still use, sometimes even for a mediocre outcome simply because you KNOW that something will happen then, guaranteed. The same can be applied with trade. Do we know the next person will answer? No Do we know the item isn't sold yet? No Do we have a fixed time in mind until we can get our trading done? No, because it depends on luck, timing and some knowledge as well. On the other hand a fixed timer for receiving items would give the player a clear idea of how long it'll take and if it's worth the effort invested into it... or in this case the time you need to wait (and forfeit on 'owning' the currency OR the item) until you can proceed with what you had in mind. " You're falling into a fallacy there. Unforseen consequences goes both ways in this regard. Yes, you're right, some might still complain... we got no idea how large this amount will be though. Also you're right, it might bring unforseen consequences to change the system, with a deeper insight into the system many factors are actually known beforehand though and the ripple-effects can be simulated reliably to a degree. Still some unforseen ones there... but those are minor issues which simply need adjustments. It's the same as having unlimited end-game access where people complained regularly about dieing in it. Therefore the adjustment was to implement maps to limit this access. It worked well, though the added system never was properly adjusted for 'smooth' progression regarding the power-increase over time which changed. The same would go for trading-experience. Something might come up, inventing a system on top of it to take care of the issue (especially since there's several hundred viable solutions for all kinds of situations present in the forum by now) is a fairly quick thing to think up, the implementation at max should take a month then for a single decent programmer... unless needlessly complex and therefore prone to faults. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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" GGG going proper testing and stuff .... I lol'd ! SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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+1. Trading sucks in POE.
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That does not contradict anything I have said. I just dont think it's very likely to creates a better system without increasing the magnitidue of the road blocks.
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" It's very hard to determine price with "fake offers" here and there. To make it sure, you have to own an item yourself, start from high price and reduce it over time. Why should average player bother with that much hassle? Are we playing trade sim? " Why would should you be able to trade with a player while being very busy fighting a boss or in the middle of a huge pack of monsters in a Delve ? No, that would not make much sense. [/quote] And why not? In real life, businessmen keep shops and hire other people to make that part of work or them. Or even use automation. In PoE automation is prohibited, but in real life it isnt... Doesnt make much sense too, right? So why ban bots in PoE? Because it's video game, damn it! It's DIFFERENT from real life. And that's why we should allow trading async. IGN: MortalKombat
Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504 There is no knowledge That is not power |
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" Yes, to some extent. To evaluate an item's worth properly, one needs a minimum amount of knowledge of the market. I personally don't like it much, so I play SSF. " Because Wraeclast isn't exactly the same as our world, let's allow everything and anything ? What kind of flowed argument is that ??? Consistency ffs, Wraeclast's 'market' is supposed to be a bargaining economy, you like it or not. And you can't bargain or evaluate anything in the middle of a boss fight. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Jun 20, 2019, 2:38:13 AM
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" Its a video game so choices need to be made that impact design. If you can buy every slot of gear at a moments notice with 1 click of a button it makes finding anything on your own that much less important. It also has drastic impact on every singlepoint of character progression. Lets say we had an AH where you click to buy, just search for the unique item, piece of gear capped at a certain level or something like that. When leveling you just click a few times, get full decked out level 1 gear. Then redo the process every 10-20 levels, depending on build and you have yourself a scenario where nothing you find at all is going to be interesting while leveling. It also speeds up the progression of characters pretty significantly. This is just from a buyers point of view. Which buying is already EASY as hell to do in POE, it just isn't so simple you only click one button and are done. From a selling point of view, what effort does it take on your part to list something? Looting it, IDing it, PCing it and then listing, currently people don't list everything because many people find trades under 5c to not be worth the interruption of their flow, map, delve, bosses or whatever. WIth an automated system it removes that cost and allows people to list stuff as cheap or cheaper then 1 alch orb. Stuff people wouldn't largely do now. So the market becomes that much more saturated with items and greatly speeds up the itemization for everyone. Items simply should never be as simple as click = buy. This should and does apply to uniques, rares, div cards. From a currency point of view, there is probably room for improvement, but it would need to be looked at closely in order to not upset the game. Currently stuff like alts are 6:1 or something on one of the leagues, that number would be insane 3 years ago. Stuff like mass buying fossils and stuff is more difficult than people want it to be, partly because few people farm them in bulk so they must contact a large amount of people to get enough to craft with. I understand people want to craft their own stuff, but part of the cost of doing so is contacting bunch of people to get what you need. Fossil crafts are extremely powerful and if you learn to improve your search not too hard to do. The ultimate issue with trade and the community is the instant gratification part, people just want to get it and move on, without enjoying any part of the process in the meantime, this wasn't nearly the case back in the day, but as GGG makes the game faster and faster and it appeals to more and more players, the expectation is for them to make the instant gratification people see in other parts of the game, expand to trade as well. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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" Implement a stop-gap for receiving the items. After a transaction it takes... let's say 30 minutes to get them. No more 'instant stuff' despite AH, issue solved therefore, others not yet, though this one is a major gripe and simply brain-dead to think up a fix for. " Taken care of with the above situation, heck, increase it to 1 hour of it's a bother, you'll really really think about upgrading your character if you can't use the item in 1 hour of time after buying it. Will you get one which is better in that time? Also, how much currency do you need to deck out your character when starting out, this is a concern for the first character still. " upon coming to the mapping-stage your limitation is currency, not time. Hence the speed for itemization won't change there, it's only an issue during leveling... which needs simply to be slowed with transaction-bumps. " True, it also would allow buyers to actually get answers for those things, also it would finally be limited by storage-space rather then time-investment, an already implemented stop-gap for this situation. Got 1000€ thrown into the game for tabs? Good for you, have all those tabs slapped full of garbage which permanently aids you in your runs while piling up slowly. Far enough that you'll only sell 20c+ items? Those 1 alch pieces won't even be relevant to you anymore, they don't matter one way or another, even throwing them into a tab is a waste of time by then... as you'll most likely need to remove them later on again. " Only relevant after a few days, also only relevant for people who start the game with their first character... which is actually a good change as it'll help those people not to die as often and therefore allowing to ease them into the mechanics... they'll hit a skill-barrier after all fairly soon. Decking out a secondary character on the other hand is laughable, get 20c and slap some leveling-uniques onto it, done for Act 1-10, tabula, wanderlust, goldrim, 2-3 other uniques, rest buy from vendors in white and slap an alch on it, good enough. " Reasoning besides itemization-speed? Which as said above isn't as big of an issue as you make it out to be. " Once again, top-tier uniques and rares have the currency-barrier, time doesn't matter there. Div-cards are another issue as well, right now they are useless unless you've got a set nearly finished, buying them 1 by 1 is such a major hassle they're simply not worth it most of the time. Easing the change of ownership for them would actually be a positive thing as the demand would rise... hence the price as well. " It's because multi-mod-meta is strong. Also fossils need several tries, acquiring the amount of crafts needed through delving takes hours, crafting takes seconds. This disparity makes it so hard to acquire as people literally rip away your whole farmed amount in seconds (as soon as the listing finally goes through) even with premium-prices. " I had currency in Betrayal, a lot of currency. I crafted stygs with them. I bought fossils in bulk (20+ per interaction!) for premium prices. The amount of the market wasn't sustainable long-term in any way. By the time I wrote to people they were gone, trading took several hours sometimes for a 5 minute crafting-session. This is not a good situation. I would've rather waited a day for those fossils to be available and in the meantime being able to buy 100-200 instead, this was just not a choice. So no, the search isn't an issue, it's the actual supply and inherent value regarding the possible outcomes and the current pricing on the market for them. " First of all, you're right to a degree, that has to be said. Though... whoever 'enjoys' being ignored OR simply outright told tens of times 'sold' in the process has to be fairly psychopathic. There simply is no enjoyable part there. Interacting with people on the other hand can be enjoyable, but that's not where the core issues with the trade-systems are. So, having the API work INSTANTLY would be one upside already, removing the API completely and instead using a fully integrated system which is real-time would also be a solution. An AH is also a solution (with proper measures taken to make sure it won't run into problems). Any form of trading which works without those frustrating elements is also a better thing. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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There doesn't need to be a time gate for buying/selling items on an AH.
The average player playing solo probably will only find a few Exa within a week, and be grinding to convert gear into chaos just to get more Exa and save up for key pieces to their build. Players playing in a group/guild or botting in a group will have higher accessibility to currency drops like Exa, and that won't change unless GGG changes the quantity formula, which they shouldn't change because it gives incentive for group play. Inatead, GGG should have measures in place for banning botters so people aren't abusing the MF system. Purchases made by an individual player will be largely gated by supply/demand for items and the amount of currency they have from playing the game their way. This is already the case with the current system, and it won't change with an AH. Instant access to the items doesn't trivialize gameplay any more than it is already "trivialized" when supply/demand and availability of currency already gate how often purchases occur. If there's a gate for anything, it could be the number of items listed by each player. Maybe 10 items listed on the AH per premium tab. This way, even lesser uniques will sell for a bit more than 1-2 alch each as players would want to prioritize selling the more valuable items they have obtained. IMO this still isn't necessary, but if I had to choose to gate anything, this would be where I would implement one. |
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