To everyone whos scared of power creep

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Kulze wrote:

It's about the amount of work versus reward. Too little RNG in a looter game and you'll have the same issue as Guild Wars 2. Nice gameplay, boring loot. Too much and you'll have the issue of being overwhelmed, this is PoE's problem. The solution is to drizzle the available mods slowly into gameplay along the line, not force all of them towards the player at the same time.

Lol, had you even read, what you're answering to?
First, the talk was about CONTENT itself being gated behind RNG & grind, not items. In PoE players, that are ready to face hand bosses like uber elder or even shaper's guardians, cant do that often cause map drop rates is made so you cant sustain hard content without dumping huge amounts of currency into it (without any decent returns, of course).
Personally, i dont like when i have to dump tons of currency without any returns and/or plow through countless dodoes dying on sight, just to get a one-time ticket to somewhat hard content.
I believe, in properly balanced game, hard content should be gated behind difficulty, not behind grind or pouring currency. If you're tough and skilled enough, you should have the right to run that content, period.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Lol, had you even read, what you're answering to?
First, the talk was about CONTENT itself being gated behind RNG & grind, not items. In PoE players, that are ready to face hand bosses like uber elder or even shaper's guardians, cant do that often cause map drop rates is made so you cant sustain hard content without dumping huge amounts of currency into it (without any decent returns, of course).
Personally, i dont like when i have to dump tons of currency without any returns and/or plow through countless dodoes dying on sight, just to get a one-time ticket to somewhat hard content.
I believe, in properly balanced game, hard content should be gated behind difficulty, not behind grind or pouring currency. If you're tough and skilled enough, you should have the right to run that content, period.

Yes, that's definitely true, for that a simple solution is present: Make maps 'blank slates' simply. Also this takes away the issue of shuffling the atlas each league.

You get a slate for T1, you pick the T1 you want to run, no useless RNG there and progression keeps fluid. Baffling why that hasn't been implemented yet.
Ah, let me think, GGG makes mechanics frustrating so they don't have to do a good job with it from the start, right!

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

I believe, in properly balanced game, hard content should be gated behind difficulty, not behind grind or pouring currency. If you're tough and skilled enough, you should have the right to run that content, period.

I dont really agree with that.

especially the grind part.

there is nothing wrong with gating content behind grind in games that are inherently about constant grind.

even games like poker, are gated by bankroll. most pro players started at lower stakes and grinded their way to the top. once they enter a bad streak, they go down a rank or two, not because theyre unskilled, but because they dont have the bankroll.

in context of poe, this resonates twice as loud, because

A)there simply isnt enough difficulty ramp up between t1 mobs and t15 mobs.

B)the itemization of poe effectively ends in your 70s if youre not in SSF. at this point you can equip everything that you need completely leveled and CRUSH all maps period.

ideally, maps would actually get tougher and tougher and in order to so much as to progress you would need to have upgrades that can be only gotten in maps as drops and not crafted/bought/etc

in poe, especially nowadays, progression ends extremely fast and even the shitties builds can do most of map content, and then the tip of the iceberg which becomes the 'actual' game for those interested in some content that is remotely challenging and requires *some* defenses/sustain because just burst isnt good enough

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BloodPuddles420 wrote:

I've never heard power creep used in this way, because it's not possible to keep old content relevant while progressing an ARPG. The whole point is collecting loot and powering up your character. Like that Grim Dawn reference, that only goes so far. Once you max out and keep getting better gear afterwards all of that previous content is gonna be easy. I also massively prefer it that way, static things in games are way better. It seems dumb killing a boss no problem, then 20 levels later you're way more powerful and get one shotted by them. But yeah, anyways, I've always heard power creep used as you've pretty much completed your character, and are doing an extremely lengthy grind to squeeze any more power out of them.

if youve never heard it used that way, then you probably didnt have enough talk about games

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because it's not possible to keep old content relevant while progressing an ARPG

you do not seem to follow the point here.

power creep is compared to previous iteration, not some previous part in the game.


in poe, this concept is new leagues they put each 3/4 months.

each time you relevel your character in a new league, you start from scratch against the same content as before

and if in new patch Im able to shit on content in 3 hours as opposed to 3 days, then its a huge power creep.

a great example is ascendancies. when they were introduced (and remember there was zero high content added along with them) some people made a video of being able to clear a merciless dried lake with just ascendancy points (back then it was only 6 too) without investing a single point in the passive tree.

which, pre-ascendancy would be impossible. like, actually impossible.

power creep, again, is increase in average 'player power' that is given to players by default. storm brand is a power creep skill.
a skill that can be used to clear content on a 2link will be a power creep skill. and so on.

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grepman wrote:

even games like poker, are gated by bankroll. most pro players started at lower stakes and grinded their way to the top. once they enter a bad streak, they go down a rank or two, not because theyre unskilled, but because they dont have the bankroll.

I can tolerate content, hidden behind RNG, if that RNG in average doesnt push you backall the time. In poker, as you exemplified, you might get fucked by RNG sometimes and go down, but in the LONG RUN, you get where your skill belongs to. Imagine, if in poker you would have to beat 1000 noobs for every game VS master...

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grepman wrote:

in context of poe, this resonates twice as loud, because

A)there simply isnt enough difficulty ramp up between t1 mobs and t15 mobs.

This is precisely the problem to be fixed, then. Fix it, insdted of gating access behind grinds.

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grepman wrote:

B)the itemization of poe effectively ends in your 70s if youre not in SSF. at this point you can equip everything that you need completely leveled and CRUSH all maps period.

It doesnt. Mere fact, that you can equip any existing item at level 75 (or so) does NOT mean, that you will. Powerful items are very hard to obtain in PoE, and even 100-lvl player might not be able to obtain some of them.

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grepman wrote:

ideally, maps would actually get tougher and tougher and in order to so much as to progress you would need to have upgrades that can be only gotten in maps as drops and not crafted/bought/etc

That's one of ways to do it, but problem lies in another area:

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grepman wrote:

in poe, especially nowadays, progression ends extremely fast and even the shitties builds can do most of map content, and then the tip of the iceberg which becomes the 'actual' game for those interested in some content that is remotely challenging and requires *some* defenses/sustain because just burst isnt good enough

Since even shittiest builds can do most content, and good build can do it using shitty gear, there is no incentive to get more expensive and powerful items, often. Furthermore, since any relatively hard content in gated behind grinding easy one, players like me get bored of too easy gameplay.

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robmafia wrote:

...so only those who are more familiar and knowledgeable about the game (ie: the opinions that would objectively matter most) view power creep as a problem, then?

THAT'S your argument?

lolz.

Why would opinions of people that know the game better matter more? Do you think their enjoyment of the game is more important than the enjoyment of the average player? Why?

BTW, power creep is necessitated by the fact that GGG either doesn't want to or doesn't manage to get power differentials under control. I personally think they don't want to, though I am not sure why.

If the top player would not be 100 times stronger than the average player, but only 2-3 times, GGG would not have to creep up the power in order to make the game playable for the average player. Plus, the top player would not be hit as badly by power creep.

But for some reason the top players (or at least most of them, as far as I can tell) do not want that power differential to go down. Maybe they like power creep? If not, do they just not want others to have fun? Not sure.

(Side note, I have no issues with my character not being powerful enough, the only problem I have at the moment is that I have to buy T7 maps in order to make any progress through the Atlas - and I am not a particular fan of the concept of power creep either)

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

It doesnt. Mere fact, that you can equip any existing item at level 75 (or so) does NOT mean, that you will. Powerful items are very hard to obtain in PoE, and even 100-lvl player might not be able to obtain some of them.

It should be adjusted nonetheless. Seeing uber-elder kills at lvl 70 or less (as far down as 36 because of literal broken interactions between some mechanics) would alleviate the issue to a degree.

GGG needs to revamp ever single skill and every single item-drop then though, as well as adjusting the level requirement of every item in existence. That's a massive undertaking and sure to piss off a lot of people. Nonetheless something which needs to be done sooner or later as more and more content gets stuffed into the game in the same manner it's now.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Since even shittiest builds can do most content, and good build can do it using shitty gear, there is no incentive to get more expensive and powerful items, often. Furthermore, since any relatively hard content in gated behind grinding easy one, players like me get bored of too easy gameplay.

My build is a prime example of that. See the lack of an anti-freeze flask? Well, it happens rarely enough for me not to care while farming T16.
Also, I haven't bothered re-rolling my helmet, gloves and boots since quite a while, I simply get items for new bases in standard. League is finished for me. I can kill every boss besides Cortex - who I don't care about with the loot he gives - and therefore I'm done with the build. I'll most likely upgrade my gloves though, but that's an item I need for my standard-character rather then in-league.

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Char1983 wrote:

Why would opinions of people that know the game better matter more? Do you think their enjoyment of the game is more important than the enjoyment of the average player? Why?

To a small degree he's right. But as usual, only to a small.

Someone not knowing the underlying game-mechanics will often miss out very relevant points of why something is as it is. You can't be objective without knowing as much of the facts as possible.

Nonetheless you're also right about those issues mentioned needing to be addressed.

It's the way in which it's handled though. You CAN make both beginners and people struggling with the game happy, as well as veterans. There's solutions present, those just have to be taken rather then dumbing down the game.

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Char1983 wrote:

If the top player would not be 100 times stronger than the average player, but only 2-3 times, GGG would not have to creep up the power in order to make the game playable for the average player. Plus, the top player would not be hit as badly by power creep.

Also to a degree. The majority of difference between players comes from using the 'right' game-mechanics. Upgraded in the wrong order? Sorry, your character won't feel stronger by a LOT. Missed that a specific mod even exists? Well, shame on you, you're stuck 5 Tiers lower then needed. Picked the 'wrong' main-skills? Oh shame, you won't progress even to shaper unless you play 10 hours per day, otherwise the ridiculously expensive gear to make it even 'viable' for end-game isn't present.

That's a major issue, we got around 20% of the active skills being useful for end-game content at the moment. And 5% of skills are just broken in power-level, those are the meta-skills like Winter Orb, Storm Brand, Scourge Arrow and so on.

I tried a big number of builds yet, some of my own, some from mathil for example, some of this forum here.

Some skills just scale so bad you can put the skill gem into the dumpster.
some "just need good gear". which is pretty close to the dumpster for many players because not everyone knows how to farm and gather currency.

And here and there, the skilltree is just bullshit, im looking at you duelist.



There are only so many number of skills viable for endgamecontent in this game, at times, it felt like playing wow classic where you could spend your points in many different ways but the meta required you to put them in a certain pattern to be most efficient.(which is why they removed the skill tree because ...its always the same)

soo...translate this to PoE and you get the biggest weakness, the skill tree.
which is also kinda the biggest strength lulz

sadly, i got myself into starten the last 3 leagues with totemarc hierophant just because it was the safest, easiest way to get shit done.
It got so boring, but why bother playing something which would MAYBE get you to the goal while you have a taxi?

ps: synthesis sucks

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Kulze wrote:

It should be adjusted nonetheless. Seeing uber-elder kills at lvl 70 or less (as far down as 36 because of literal broken interactions between some mechanics) would alleviate the issue to a degree.

I agree, that level requirements should stay, to prevent players from using endgame items too early, but i see nothing wrong, that level 75 player is able to use any item in the game. Extra levels above that just add you character a bit of stats through passives, HP & mana, but arent neccessary, and it's fine for me.
You shoulnd try to rebuild something, that works fine. There are so many broken and flawed things in PoE, so better focus on them instead.

I've played other games, where certain items are sometimes gated behind too high level cap, and it's really frustrating, when you have to grind tons of exp just to be able to use certain item. In Sacred 2, for example, this was reduced to absurdity - i couldnt use ANY items i've found (set items, namely - and the majority of BiS items belong to sets there), and had to grind fucking tons of exp to become able to use them.

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Char1983 wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

...so only those who are more familiar and knowledgeable about the game (ie: the opinions that would objectively matter most) view power creep as a problem, then?

THAT'S your argument?

lolz.

Why would opinions of people that know the game better matter more?

...this should be self-explanatory.

do janitors with an iq of 73 teach advanced physics at ivy league schools?

who should fly passenger jets? people who are familiar and well versed with aviation or someone who just saw a plane for the first time 5 minutes ago?

who should commentate a mlb game - a pitcher with 20 years experience or a drunk guy at a homeless shelter? (bad example, drunk hobo is probably more entertaining and the chance of an on-air stabbing increases 389467 fold)

expert opinions OBJECTIVELY matter more because THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.