We need an auction house

"
robmafia wrote:

Price fixing involves the cooperation among two or more business competitors to set or stabilize a price for a product or service. It may involve setting a minimum price, setting a maximum discount on price, agreeing to buy supplies at an "agreed upon" maximum price, agreeing to a standard set of charges or surcharges for a product or service, or even agreeing to a set rate of production of a product. In any case, it involves an agreement that disrupts open market price competition.


As I've tried to explain it to you already - there is a substantial difference between price fixing in real world free market and in this game, as different conditions have to be met so one could actually "fix" the price.

No, collusion of different people isn't a pre-req to fix the price under every market condition, as under the regime of, for example - state driven economy of communism you won't find different competitors "fixing" prices because there won't be any competitors.
There will be just state monopoly that will fix the prices in every branch of economy and for every product.

Yet you are still probably gonna argue that in this case prices aren't fixed because it doesn't apply backwards to your definition.

But what happens when Chinese state-owned companies are fixing prices through dumping (subsidies) on solar panels? Is it a price fixing from the perspective of global, outside market and global competition or not, because according to your definition - there are no 2+ competitors colluding.. They are not really competing, locally. And all of these companies still belong to the same owner - the Chinese state/government or some local politicians/commissars that are related to the government.

Yeah, your arguments are hilarious.

The same way your definition doesn't apply literally to every branch of very different world economies - it doesn't apply when it comes to PoE.

Since I refuse to repeat the same things over and over again, I'm just gonna refer you to my previous post:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2477436/page/4#p21846060

Why are you insisting on quoting the definition literally over and over again while refusing to understand that it doesn't apply here - is beyond me. Same goes for ignoring all my points and arguments about differences between real world market and the in-game barter system.

What's even more funny and shows your complete inability to understand anything at all - right from the start you're trying to draw conclusions based on this definition that AH wouldn't work in this game even when it's obvious that it's a fallacious thinking.

If you still don't get it - you should probably educate yourself and read the whole article (not just first three lines of text) on the wikipedia and other sites as it provides good, entry-level knowledge and it explains everything rather thoroughly.
Last edited by kentrylix#3006 on Mar 31, 2019, 6:21:18 PM
lolz @ this guy mentioning monopolies (no competitors) and etc... as if IT'S COLLUDING WITH ITSELF.

my god, man. you're wrong. how many definitions do you want?

FACT: collusion is a requirement of price fixing
FACT: you haven't even been complaining about price fixing
FACT: you've been complaining about FAKE listings
FACT: you have yet to even complain about fixed prices

"
The same way your definition doesn't apply literally to every branch of very different world economies


lolwut? name one.

this will not happen.


"
kentrylix wrote:

If you still don't get it - you should probably educate yourself and read the whole article


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...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz!
Last edited by robmafia#7456 on Mar 31, 2019, 6:28:16 PM
Add the damned AH just like in PS4 alredy, no fucking excuses or manifestos. Just fucking do it.
"In this game you're just a cow being milked, not a human being entertained" - Kiss_Me_Quick
"
robmafia wrote:
lolz @ this guy mentioning monopolies (no competitors) and etc... as if IT'S COLLUDING WITH ITSELF.

my god, man. you're wrong. how many definitions do you want?

FACT: collusion is a requirement of price fixing



Ok, I'm done. /EOT
Last edited by kentrylix#3006 on Mar 31, 2019, 7:52:19 PM
see? i knew you couldn't name one.
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"
robmafia wrote:
see? i knew you couldn't name one.


I've given you one example, already.

Some other example would be: having two competitors colluding.
They've fixed the price on the local market, at the higher level than under the free market competition. One has bought the other one and has effectively created a monopoly. The price hasn't changed (or went further up to exploit the fact of the monopoly). Is it fixed or not? Has anything changed from the consumer's point of view?

Other example - corporations like Unilever, which are basically holding several brands of the same (or similar) lines of products.
And they are buying their competitors to add another brands to their portfolio. Do they need to collude with some other companies OR is it enough for them to just buy and hold the product brands that have already amassed the majority of the market share and then fix the price at higher level?

Why would it matter at all if the two companies colluded to fix the price of, let's say - 2 products or if these 2 products are now owned by one company which has fixed the price at the same, higher level because the competitor is gone after it's been bought and shut down?

Can monopoly fix the price or not? Ofc it can, by definition. There is no free market, it doesn't need to collude because there is no competition that can undercut it with price and it can set the price of the product at any level.

The collusion to fix the prices is only required when there are 2 or more serious competitors on the local market on which we assume they are competing against each other. Otherwise one can always undercut the other and so the prices aren't fixed.

Also:

"

FACT: collusion is a requirement of price fixing


Again - under relatively free market economy, where there do exist different companies with similar strength that are competing. Then yes - collusion is the practical requirement in order to fix the price.

If there is a company having a majority of the market share in the specific branch or monopoly de iure, given by the state - there is no need to collude to fix the price at higher level as it can be fixed by monopolist.

"Price fixing is setting the price of a product or service, rather than allowing it to be determined naturally through free-market forces"

"A business fixes price by colluding with one or more of its competitors to buy or sell goods and services at an agreed price. "

"Price fixing runs afoul of federal and state competition laws as it stifles fair competition in the free market."

source: Investopedia.


Regardless - nothing you've said actually does apply to this game, including your definitions. And I regret that you've derailed this thread and you've turned it into nonsense.

Originally, you've stated that it would be much easier to collude with AH and you've referred to your definition of price fixing to back it up.

Regardless if it's the current barter system or AH (or any other trade system) - the game still has:
a) random production of items through mapping and other mechanics
b) random crafting
c) exactly the same access rights of every player to the "distribution chain" through AH/PoE trade listings/whatever. You just can't deny anyone the access to the trade listings, regardless of how much "power" in the form of in-game currency you're going to gather.
There is just one channel of distribution and it's open for everyone.
So there goes your collusion when it comes to the chain of distribution.

What about colluding with other sellers?
You just can't do that either unless it's some very rare crafted item but even then there is almost zero possibility that this item is going to be exactly the same with each and every roll. So you can't effectively FIX the prices of items.

It's because the value is a subjective thing from the point of view of consumer/buyer. And one or the other item, depending on the set of rolls, is going to have more or less value to him, personally (and his build), even if the prices of both items are exactly the same.

And even if you've wanted to collude - it doesn't matter if it's the current barter system or AH - under any system you need to convince all other players to set the price at the same level.

How can you do that if the distribution of items is random? You can't anticipate who's gonna have similar item next to collude with him, before he puts his item on AH.

AH or not - the trade system has nothing to do with collusion and it doesn't make it any easier, regardless of what we choose.

Also - it's a one-time thing. You can't reproduce the same items with the exact same rolls over and over again, on a mass scale (with an exception of the currency - by mapping and flipping). And that would be one of the requirements to effectively fix the price on the market, IN THIS GAME.

Now compare that to your definition and its assumptions of real world free market, where the production isn't random, where the main market players are known, where the distribution chains can be exclusive, etc. etc.
Last edited by kentrylix#3006 on Mar 31, 2019, 9:25:40 PM
We need an auction house.
"
kentrylix wrote:
"
robmafia wrote:
see? i knew you couldn't name one.


I've given you one example, already.


no, you haven't.

price fixing is price fixing.

monopolies can't collude. ie: it can fuck economies up in different ways, but it can't price fix.

same with your silly communism diatribe.

you CLEARLY think "price fixing" means something other than what it ACTUALLY means.

and you have yet to cite any example of how the "definition doesn't apply literally to every branch of very different world economies"

lolz @ mentioning examples that demonstrate MY claim, though!

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"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct."

...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz!
Last edited by robmafia#7456 on Mar 31, 2019, 9:17:18 PM
"
robmafia wrote:

price fixing is price fixing.

Yes, price fixing is price fixing.

"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand."

If there is just one participant, the "agreement" is implied.

"

monopolies can't collude. ie: it can fuck economies up in different ways, but it can't price fix.

They can't collude but can price fix.
It's about fixing the price - setting it at higher level than it would've been set through free market competition with 2+ companies involved. It has nothing to do, specifically, with collusion.
Collusion IS used as a means TO fix the price under free market WITH competition.

Not that the price can be fixed only through collusion. Again - collusion isn't required for price fixing.

"

you CLEARLY think "price fixing" means something other than what it ACTUALLY means.

No, you don't understand the difference between the means and the ends, correlation and causation, etc.

"

monopolies can't collude. ie: it can fuck economies up in different ways, but it can't price fix.

lolz @ mentioning examples that demonstrate MY claim, though!


"Price fixing is when two entities, usually companies, agree to sell a product at a set price. They do this to maintain profit margins. It's easiest for monopolies to fix prices. They operate without competitors that could offer products at lower prices."

https://www.thebalance.com/price-fixing-types-examples-why-it-s-illegal-3305955

"The following points highlight the seven limitations of price-fixing power of a monopolist. (..)"

http://www.economicsdiscussion.net/monopoly/power/price-fixing-power-of-a-monopolist-7-limitations-economics/25679

"Price fixing is a manipulation scheme that is difficult to detect and prove since multiple companies having identical prices is not enough to prove that they colluded to fix prices.(..)

For this reason, it is easiest for companies in a monopoly to fix prices, since they have no competitors that can counter their sales prices with lower ones."

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pricefixing.asp

"The fixing of prices by monopolists reduces the income of society. (..)"

https://www.britannica.com/topic/price-system#ref212566

"price fixing.
the setting of prices artificially (as by producers or government) contrary to free market operations"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/price-fixing

Last edited by kentrylix#3006 on Mar 31, 2019, 10:38:15 PM
"
kentrylix wrote:
"
robmafia wrote:

price fixing is price fixing.

Yes, price fixing is price fixing.

"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand."

If there is just one participant, the "agreement" is implied.




hilariously false.
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