Chris Wilson: "Many spells are too weak for players to want to use"

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sidtherat wrote:

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ciel289 wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

Spoiler

problem with selfcast isnt selfcast. it is all the stuff added around it: EXTREME buffs to traps/mines, multi-totems, trigger machineguns (poets pen, cocs, mjoln etc)

selfcast is - in your own words - doing more than fine atm.

but it sucks in comparison to proxy casters. but i tell you one thing - melee sucks in comparison to self cast A LOT more than selfcast to proxy-casters

even these 'good' like MS, tectonic or BFlurry - these are mostly jacks of one trade. clear speed with MS is garbage, tectonic isnt great for single target and is pigeonholed into few gearing choices, bflurry is great boss molester but clearing with it is rather sad. Frost Blades on the other hand has a nice clear (still worse than bows/wands but still) but the single target is legendary bad etc etc (and any skill/setup that requires such a mundane thing as a gem swap sucks by design)



if i ever had to play POE for living - like a streamer or whatnot - there is 0 reason to ever play melee. slow, visually dull, ineffective currency wise, requires actual attention while playing - thus exhausting in the long run, lots of skippable content when leveling because melee.. gets you killed with no defences etc etc.
the ceiling is very low, even with extreme gear and most OP cookie cutter setup melee player is at a disadvantage compared to spells on just a moderate budget.

take a tier1 map, sextant it for lots of mobs and do a simple test - who will clear it faster?

how much does it cost to make a melee build comparable to this:

or

these items are few ex a pop and all you need is generic tree with some 30-100c jewelry to make it fly . thats it

sadly i doubt i can afford something comparable without breaking my bank

Spoiler

so now we are at "melee is fine but only if you invest 1000x more than in a spell build"
i´m not denying that you need more optimised gear for melee,but that was never the point.

yes you need good gear for clearspeed and/or bossing on melee,but you dont need perfect gear like you are claiming.
good gear for melee is a lot more accessible.

ofc since you seem to play standart those changes havent reached you yet (you cant craft veiled stuff in standart right?),but you choose to play in standart and you know new stuff is delayed there.

there is nothing wrong with playing standart,but those crafting changes had a huge impact for a lot of builds. the next leauge might have another big impact on that ,even when the items with good unchangeable mods will be very rare,but ppl will find ways to farm these.

by crafting you mean these +100%IPD crafts etc? we have them in standard too

but these are mostly inconsequential - you could get weapons like these before, just for more money.

crafts that we DO NOT have are all the broken 'non-chaos as chaos' and 'ele as chaos' that double-tripple-quadruple dip due to primitive conversion mechanic + focus mods (that benefit all classes equally). chaos crafts - while in theory can also benefit melee - MOSTLY benefit the casters. why? because attack build needs weapon(s), while casters.. well. it is a nice option. as a caster you can easily fit these broken chaos mods into the build while it is difficult to find many use cases for melee

ofc there are also 'IPD + impale' etc crafts but these are largely inconsequential and do not add much to melee table. while 400pdps claw looks nice it doesnt make up for all the downsides. again - test a T1 map with melee (you can pick the best one) vs caster. then both characters have all the damage they need. i already know the result of this comparison

i only mentioned the new skills as a reminder that GGG is trying to improve melee. while the new skills themself might be inconsequential (havent used them myself so i dont know theiir powerlevel) compared to the strong skills,they still show that GGG is trying stuff for melee.

i wouldnt be suprised if those kills were more like a test run for the new mechanics and we will see some of it in 3.7.

when i talked about crafting i wasnt mainly talking about the "xx added as chaos dmg", btw 2 very powerfull mods a reserved for attacks only "attacks with this weapon penetrate elemental/chaos resistence".
if you go with the 2 tier (11-13%) over the highest tier(14-16%) with these mods they are dirt cheap (3chaos vs 1exalted)

the hybrid mods for all gearslots, dmg taken gained as mana on rings/amulets to completly cover mom,focused mods like 120% increased effect of fortify while focused and some other stuff had a huge impact on gearing.

yes these mods often work for spells as well,but thats not the point. gearing itself was made easier and one of the most common complains for melee is "gearing is impossible/unaffordable".

sure all these things to put melee on the same level as the good spell options, but they are a good step from melee feels horrible against any kind of endgame boss (or league encounters) to melee feels ok for the endgame stuff.

with these steps melee is getting closer to the point where you could say melee is fine. we already have a handfull of powerfull melee skills and the other melee skills only have to reach an level where they are worth playing
and not top tier meta.

ps:i would love to see a change for 2h weapons,they should scale added dmg ,from other sources than the weapon itself, better than 1h weapons. the 2nd 6link isnt enough with all those shaper/elder mods,imo

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ACGIFT wrote:

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ciel289 wrote:

so we got to the path of building for 1mill dps level?
you can create viperstrike builds with over 1mil dps and i´m pretty sure you can do the same for heavy strike,double strike.
it doesnt say that much about skills. ofc pob is a very good indicator for builds.

Nice of you to assume and make an ass of yourself. ;)

No, the figures are actually for REAL characters that exist IN BETRAYAL RIGHT NOW.

And again, that's also besides the point, because that'd equally apply to both attacks and spells, no? The fact is... A LOT of spells are seeing heavy use, with real players getting functionally over 1M DPS, while only a handful of melee attacks you can say the same for.

But, you PROBABLY had already known that, so you hoped to deflect away from that point that kinda deflates your whole argument of "melee is definitely not worse off than spells!"

But of course, you must OBVIOUSLY be an expert, since you've hidden 100% of your profile.

ya right.... and how do you get these 1mil dmg numbers from ingame information ?
the game itself is horrible at calculating the dps for you in a reasonable way.
it doesnt factor in enemy resistances or curses applied to them

you are talking about functional dps,but how do you get these numbers without using some kind of calculator for it. the game itself isnt providing these numbers.

when you use a calculator for these numbers you cant factor in the gameplay they need unless you can facetank the stuff you are fighting.

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ciel289 wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

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ciel289 wrote:

you have reapted over and over again in other threads,that melee isnt viable. as you were proven wrong because molten strike,tectonic slam etc are doing more than fine. after that you went to true melee which i described as "close combat".

Ahaha sure dude. This is factually 100% either a lie or incorrect. There are posts going back many years to me having the exact same definition of melee, it isn't something that magically changed to support a position; it's the same as it's always been. And it's more "definitively" correct than GGG's gem tag, by the way, where "melee" can be projectiles that travel like any regular bow build or aoe that covers the entire screen like any aoe spell and often times scales the same way as bow or spell builds.

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ciel289 wrote:

maybe you should read the whole post i even explained the problem.
but ofc you already have proven over and over that you love to missunderstand/choose to missunderstand or put them out of context completely.

You mean like accusing somebody of changing their position when it factually has never changed? FACTS DONT MATTER JUST SAY WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT I GUESS LOL


Yes, GGG could simply add new skills instead of fixing older ones and leave the older ones broken trash. This is a valid point.

yep you are doing exacly as i said you would do.
all you do is accuse ppl of lying,twisting their words and putting them out of context to suit your agenda.

just to show you 1 example where you twist the words of other ppl. "Yes, GGG could simply add new skills instead of fixing older ones and leave the older ones broken trash. This is a valid point."
i never said GGG shouldnt rework old melee skills. what i said was "reworking the older meleeskills so they can compete with the stronger spells/attacks,could make them lose their identety"

ROFL

Yes that's clearly what happened here, it's not that you accused me of something that didn't happen, its that I accused you of having a valid point in some part of your post

GUILTY AS CHARGED I GUESS lol

And by all accounts I've heard the new "melee" projectile skills are garbage from what I hear. Ironically you say we cant make heavy slam like ground slam but you're ok with new melee gems basically being tornado shot

I'm just asking for melee splash to be automatic, its not glamorous but it will get the job done. Even better if you can target the ground with them.

Yes it wound be nice to have nice things on our old melee gems but we all know that isn't happening. Just let us have some aoe

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ciel289 wrote:

yes these mods often work for spells as well,but thats not the point. gearing itself was made easier and one of the most common complains for melee is "gearing is impossible/unaffordable".

Gearing melee isnt impossible, of course, but it is extremely poor value for your money.

You can now craft a, let's say, 500dps weapon, sure, and feel good about it despite how much it cost you. But I can take my wand/scepter off, stash it, run naked with a Tabula and a 10c spellcaster will shit on your 50ex melee build.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

I'm just asking for melee splash to be automatic, its not glamorous but it will get the job done. Even better if you can target the ground with them.

Yes it wound be nice to have nice things on our old melee gems but we all know that isn't happening. Just let us have some aoe

Ah, for me melee never recovered from the aoe nerf. And since then, we also had several other unjustified nerfs to melee.

I would go step further - both melee splash and ancestral call should be built in. Would this be overpowered? No, it wouldn't. In fact, even if you do this + unnerf aoe - most people will still not play those melee skills.

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toyotatundra wrote:

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ciel289 wrote:

yes these mods often work for spells as well,but thats not the point. gearing itself was made easier and one of the most common complains for melee is "gearing is impossible/unaffordable".

Gearing melee isnt impossible, of course, but it is extremely poor value for your money.

You can now craft a, let's say, 500dps weapon, sure, and feel good about it despite how much it cost you. But I can take my wand/scepter off, stash it, run naked with a Tabula and a 10c spellcaster will shit on your 50ex melee build.

your 10c spell build with tabula might have some dps but it will have nothing elese.
it wont have much life/es/armor/eva or resistances (not to mention 30% movementspeed on boots + 2-3 other stleast usefull stats)
only the weapon is so much easier to get for a spellbuild.
on all other gearslots you 2 good and 2ok stats to make them even remotely a reasonable choices.

the only option to get leech for spells from gear are elder/shaper rings and they can cost a lot more than decent melee rings.

we were talking about endgame and if you really wanna use a tablua on a spell build for lategmae you gona need insane gear for all other slots o make up for it,that are likely to costs more than good (not perfect) melee gear.

stop pretending that all gearslots cost nothing for spell builds,its a dumb lie unless you are going for a "even white mobs are a lethal maybe even 1hot threat for me in a map with mods" build

why the fuck people dont understand that a "fix to melee" can come on the patch notes, calm your butts and wait until you have the entire thing before babyraging with only 0,1% of whats coming on match 08, jesus

btw, this can very likelly be a bait for you guys, they explicity said many times "SPELL THESE, SPELL THAT SPELL SPELL", they never said they wont make any changes to melee, we can have today an annoucement saying the same thing about melee "we are rebalancing all melee skills and releasing these 4 new attack skills" they did not close this door at any point.

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Baron01 wrote:

@OP
You dont really see traditional spells much there because "hand-casting" became too slow, too inconvenient or too dangerous. 3.6 should make spells more balanced across the board and create incentives to self-cast again.

And melee was this way for like a few patches.

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Mlvado wrote:

why the fuck people dont understand that a "fix to melee" can come on the patch notes, calm your butts and wait until you have the entire thing before babyraging with only 0,1% of whats coming on match 08, jesus

btw, this can very likelly be a bait for you guys, they explicity said many times "SPELL THESE, SPELL THAT SPELL SPELL", they never said they wont make any changes to melee, we can have today an annoucement saying the same thing about melee "we are rebalancing all melee skills and releasing these 4 new attack skills" they did not close this door at any point.

Lol, but they said they are focusing on spells so

I like the debate about spell and melee build gear


let's be real honest

Tabula+10c of gear for spell = clearing red maps quickly


Tabula+10c of gear for melee= more likely struggling to clear yellow tier maps



That's not balance.


You want to make it fair, make spells require the same amount of investment as melee.

Example:

So if you need to find a 300+ DPS weapon to have good melee damage then I think balance is needing to have a 300+ Spell damage weapon to do damage.

This would require changes but that would be equality.