Chris Wilson: "Many spells are too weak for players to want to use"
" What problem does this create? Skills that have no aoe, no projectiles and no movement should be given one of those three things I don't see what problem that creates. Are people asking to make single target close range melee viable? I don't see anyone asking for that, were just asking for THE SKILLS THEMSELVES to be made viable. Turning heavy strike into a new tectonic slam or viper strike into a melee version of ED is fine imo as long as they aren't shit when the rebalance is done So I don't see any problem created my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes
----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. |
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" Your entire logic boils down to "Well, most spells are worse than molten strike, therefore spells are worse off than molten strike." Here's the news flash: practically every melee skill that isn't molten strike is lacking. Blade flurry is kinda-okay. Cyclone (without CoC, which makes it a spell damage build) really isn't, but people use it because it's affordable and requires minimal skill at the game to use. (low-investment, low-reward) We have a handful of narrow-use skills that CAN be viable, but aren't easily made so, like double strike and reave. That means that the MAJORITY of these melee skills are what you are calling "hand-picked for the worst." By contrast... Yeah, a large portion of the spells (nearly half, I think) have shown that they can readily go >1M DPS. Stuff like Dark Pact or Incinerate that hardly anyone is using? Yeah, can definitely go 1M+. To say nothing of the dozen-plus more popular spells that can do that and often more. Really, by that definition, the "hand-picked best spell" is apparently Winter Orb, Arc, Blade Vortex, Ice Nova, Storm Brand, Glacial Cascade, Ice Spear, Bladefall, Freezing Pulse, Dark Pact, Incinerate, and others... All at the same time. My guides: Summon Homing Missile (SRS) | Act II starter RF | Budget Oro's Flicker Strike
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no doubt you can make some insane melee builds (if you have insane gear).
But when you could slap on a random 6-link and some random 1 c dagger/wand and have excellent clear, good damage (and often with range advantage): why would you? Spells get their damage from gem levels mostly, while melee (well... most non ele melee anyways) gets from their weapon. They went the ol' D2 route, and its biting them in the ass now. Self cast has become a bit lacking in comparison to things like WORB, brands and blade vortex where you do not need cast non stop to deal damage (high cast speed anyone?). Melee in general is however miles and miles behind self cast. I guess they balance around reddit? |
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" maybe you should read the whole post i even explained the problem. but ofc you already have proven over and over that you love to missunderstand/choose to missunderstand or put them out of context completely. you have reapted over and over again in other threads,that melee isnt viable. as you were proven wrong because molten strike,tectonic slam etc are doing more than fine. after that you went to true melee which i described as "close combat". yes turning VS into something like ED would be an option,but that would just be one skill and we were talking about "close combat" melee in general. i already adressed the problems i see in buffing those skills without changing them into something that isnt in "close combat" anymore. i dont mind those skills not beeing "close combat" anymore,but imo they would lose their identity or make them kinda similar to other existing melee skills. instead of making those skills lose their identity,they could just add new skills instead and that is actually what GGG has been doing. the results were earthquake,tectonic slam,molten strike,bladefurry and maybe frostblades. (hope i didint forget a skill that isnt useable as ranged attack as well) just to clarify once more: i want melee improvements,but i´m not sad at all that they are doing changes to selfcast and weaker/not used spells first. those changes are very needed as well. |
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problem with selfcast isnt selfcast. it is all the stuff added around it: EXTREME buffs to traps/mines, multi-totems, trigger machineguns (poets pen, cocs, mjoln etc)
selfcast is - in your own words - doing more than fine atm. but it sucks in comparison to proxy casters. but i tell you one thing - melee sucks in comparison to self cast A LOT more than selfcast to proxy-casters even these 'good' like MS, tectonic or BFlurry - these are mostly jacks of one trade. clear speed with MS is garbage, tectonic isnt great for single target and is pigeonholed into few gearing choices, bflurry is great boss molester but clearing with it is rather sad. Frost Blades on the other hand has a nice clear (still worse than bows/wands but still) but the single target is legendary bad etc etc (and any skill/setup that requires such a mundane thing as a gem swap sucks by design) if i ever had to play POE for living - like a streamer or whatnot - there is 0 reason to ever play melee. slow, visually dull, ineffective currency wise, requires actual attention while playing - thus exhausting in the long run, lots of skippable content when leveling because melee.. gets you killed with no defences etc etc. the ceiling is very low, even with extreme gear and most OP cookie cutter setup melee player is at a disadvantage compared to spells on just a moderate budget. take a tier1 map, sextant it for lots of mobs and do a simple test - who will clear it faster? how much does it cost to make a melee build comparable to this: or these items are few ex a pop and all you need is generic tree with some 30-100c jewelry to make it fly . thats it sadly i doubt i can afford something comparable without breaking my bank
Spoiler
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" so we got to the path of building for 1mill dps level? you can create viperstrike builds with over 1mil dps and i´m pretty sure you can do the same for heavy strike,double strike. it doesnt say that much about skills. ofc pob is a very good indicator for builds. the thing is unless you can literally facetank stuff you never reach the dps pob shows you and that stands for melee as well as ranged. i had melee builds ,with half of the dps of spell builds, that could do shaper/elder safer and faster than the double dmg spell build. btw it was neither jugg nor gladiator. the key for those build normaly was using 2 different mainskills 1 bosskiller 1 clear skill. with all the shaper/elder itemmods 1h weapons have the option for that as well and until you get the shaper/elder item swaping out the gem bigger bosses (guardians,elder,shaper etc) is a solution. sure you could say those builds dont count,because i used 2skills instead of one. imo poe needs more of these 2skill combination the prime example for such a skill combination is ED+Contagion |
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" so now we are at "melee is fine but only if you invest 1000x more than in a spell build" i´m not denying that you need more optimised gear for melee,but that was never the point. yes you need good gear for clearspeed and/or bossing on melee,but you dont need perfect gear like you are claiming. good gear for melee is a lot more accessible. ofc since you seem to play standart those changes havent reached you yet (you cant craft veiled stuff in standart right?),but you choose to play in standart and you know new stuff is delayed there. there is nothing wrong with playing standart,but those crafting changes had a huge impact for a lot of builds. the next leauge might have another big impact on that ,even when the items with good unchangeable mods will be very rare,but ppl will find ways to farm these. |
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" Too much sadness and for what? Just numbers on the screen.. [que the meme] Why are we still , just to suffer? Trust your mind and strengthen your abilities!
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" There is no such thing, it's all a matter of balancing a build/character, and shield is not always better than DW in HC. DW provide a significantly high dps boost, when Raiz and Quinn are racing to uber elder ( no idea if either will make it ) with melee skills ( happening at the moment ), they are both going to DW setups. " So ... on top of not having read the previous message, you really speak of things you don't know well. ( I'm not an expert with dual strike either, but I still checked whether or not there was/were threshold jewel(s) ) I'm surprised that you actually acknowledged that what you said wasn't a fact, thank you, I will give you that. Shock Nova has always been clunky to use, I haven't been playing my Mjölner Juggernaut using it ( because it helps a bit clearing, because there is also Arc ) recently, I had some fun with it, but it's very far from bein a "good" spell. " You realized that streamers are not interesting because they only play meta ? You realize that it's often the opposite ? SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Feb 20, 2019, 7:32:24 PM
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" Ahaha sure dude. This is factually 100% either a lie or incorrect. There are posts going back many years to me having the exact same definition of melee, it isn't something that magically changed to support a position; it's the same as it's always been. And it's more "definitively" correct than GGG's gem tag, by the way, where "melee" can be projectiles that travel like any regular bow build or aoe that covers the entire screen like any aoe spell and often times scales the same way as bow or spell builds. " You mean like accusing somebody of changing their position when it factually has never changed? FACTS DONT MATTER JUST SAY WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT I GUESS LOL Which brings me to the point, why are you saying there are no spells in POE? I mean I can go right to the wiki and list a bunch of spells they're clearly there. IDK why you keep saying POE doesn't have any spells. Clearly you have a history of choosing to misunderstand and take everything out of context. Rofl The actual fuck are you even talking about here, why don't you try harder to be an obvious Fruz/rob poster boy and just say a bunch of incorrect shit " OK, glad we actually got to the relevant, non-ignorant part of the conversation. Yes, GGG could simply add new skills instead of fixing older ones and leave the older ones broken trash. This is a valid point. It's also a valid point that they could just give these skills melee splash inherently, since any build ACTUALLY USING these skills will need melee splash anyways. I don't see any reason to avoid doing AT LEAST that much, if your argument is development time. And by the way, development time is the reason I choose "add inherent melee splash" as the solution instead of much better, more creative options that GGG won't invest into. my evasion is so high i only insta rip sometimes ----- Bug Fixes: People were using cyclone for actual melee builds, so we nerfed it and made blade vortex. Also, we went ahead and made cyclone great for CoC casters while we were at it. Last edited by Legatus1982#1658 on Feb 20, 2019, 8:48:49 PM
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