Chris Wilson: "Many spells are too weak for players to want to use"

"

Rainbowvomit wrote:

This is a really ignorant and short sighted topic.

Obviously 3.7 or even 4.0 will include a massive overhaul and rebalance of all melee skills.

GGG isn't stupid. They know melee is in a bad spot but if you want good content that is well balanced it makes sense they would split up balance passes over multiple patches.

3.6 = spell rebalance, 3.7 = ranged attack rebalance, 3.8 = melee rebalance

Obviously this is just speculation but I think it would makes the most sense and allow for the most polish.

You've been here long enough to know what a "massive overhaul" for melee from ggg looks like.

How many times were we promised changes that resulted in a single new melee skill, a nerf to aoe and a 5% buff to glacial hammer damage?

And your entire thing is speculation to begin with

Enough is enough

"

Mlvado wrote:

thats the exactly point here, of this entire topic, this is a mostly, solo player game and besides of 100 races at the beggining of the league and some other races, you have ZERO incentive to compete with anyone, it DOES NOT MATTER, if you play molten strike, blade vortex or viper strike, if you want, play storm burst, WHO CARES? you like bloobing balls all over the screen, go clear tier 5 maps with Cast while channeling storm burst and ball lightning, you like cleve? cleave evertything on tier 7 maps! have fun, nobody will get upset with you.

in fact, i'm inviting you once again to actually log in to game and play, with what the fuck ever skill you want to play, you can play for hours and have fun with it, if YOU ARE CHOOSING a skill that dont do tons of damage, just set your goals a little lower and you ll be fine, trust me.

I'm inviting you to actually know the fuck you're talking about and realize that poe has a trading economy in which your builds performance directly affects your ability to trade for items your build might require

To say nothing of trying to find a group to say, run pure with while you are playing on your glacial hammer templar. Good luck with that

This is some flat out overblown ignorance

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

Rainbowvomit wrote:

This is a really ignorant and short sighted topic.

Obviously 3.7 or even 4.0 will include a massive overhaul and rebalance of all melee skills.

GGG isn't stupid. They know melee is in a bad spot but if you want good content that is well balanced it makes sense they would split up balance passes over multiple patches.

3.6 = spell rebalance, 3.7 = ranged attack rebalance, 3.8 = melee rebalance

Obviously this is just speculation but I think it would makes the most sense and allow for the most polish.

You've been here long enough to know what a "massive overhaul" for melee from ggg looks like.

How many times were we promised changes that resulted in a single new melee skill, a nerf to aoe and a 5% buff to glacial hammer damage?

And your entire thing is speculation to begin with

Enough is enough

Fortify lmao !!! That support was supposed to save melee lmao !

"

ACGIFT wrote:

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ciel289 wrote:

are you really that dumb?

So... You're repeatedly being proven wrong, so you're dropping to just insulting me? Got it: you've run out of ideas.

"

ciel289 wrote:

the numbers in these calculators might be objective,but they are only indicators of the dps you would really get out of a gear/skill setup.

Gear and skill that is being used, because I'm copying an existing character. No, the moment you got to "might be objective" (it -is- objective, not might be) you are in fact conceding that it is a proper way to measure things.

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ciel289 wrote:

your attempt with the 20.000 in betrayal is laughable at best. there are more factors to build choices than the strenght of the skill gems. reworked new or buffed things are overrepresented

You mean to say, players might be more likely to use more powerful stuff? That's kinda the entire point here. So no crap that a newly-buffed skill is going to get used more, because it was buffed.

And yeah, it's still representative, because these are the actual characters that made it into the endgame for Betrayal. 92 is a really low level for a cutoff point, which means that if something COULD be built well, it was going to by someone.

"

ciel289 wrote:

whats even more funny are the most used skills listed:

Yeah, if you read, there are two popular melee skills. You gotta go a LONG ways down to see any more: the THIRD Melee skill, Blade Flurry, lands at #20 overall. (behind TEN spell skills!)

And if you paid any attention at all, you'd also notice that Around 83% of cycloners are CoC, which means they're still spell skills. So you have a great melee skill... IF You attach a spell skill to deal damage with it anyway.

That means we have just one melee skill that actually deals melee damage in the top 10; Molten Strike.

ofc these 2 powerfull melee skils dont matter,because the 3rd one is at place 20... (same excuse as always)

so lets go with the top 20:

3 melee
7 spells
5 attacks
2 vaal versions of already listed skills
1 minion/buff (herald of agony)
1 trap
1 buff (righteous fire)

some of the spells will be used as trap/totems/coc so they consist of more than 1 playstyle

if coc is melee or spell for cyclone is debatable,because the dmg soruces might be spells but you are still in melee range to proc it with cyclone.

considering that a big part of spells is used in a different playstyle or is a new/changed skill,that is extremly likely to be used more than "normal" (next or other future leagues) those stats arent bad for melee usage.

noone was ever denying that melee balance is perfect or even good on average,but there are big problems for selfcast as well and that is what they are adressing next patch.

ggg has added new melee skills with a new mechanic (impale) and the banners that seem to profit melee more than other playstyles.
these things are obviously not enough to "fix" melee,but they look a lot like a "testrun" for possible reworksor new skills on a future patch to me.

bex´s post on reddit seems to indicate melee stuff in 3.7,this could be wrong though.

"

ciel289 wrote:

ofc these 2 powerfull melee skils dont matter,because the 3rd one is at place 20... (same excuse as always)

so lets go with the top 20:

3 melee
7 spells
5 attacks
2 vaal versions of already listed skills
1 minion/buff (herald of agony)
1 trap
1 buff (righteous fire)

some of the spells will be used as trap/totems/coc so they consist of more than 1 playstyle

if coc is melee or spell for cyclone is debatable,because the dmg soruces might be spells but you are still in melee range to proc it with cyclone.

considering that a big part of spells is used in a different playstyle or is a new/changed skill,that is extremly likely to be used more than "normal" (next or other future leagues) those stats arent bad for melee usage.

What you just listed there is 2 melee and 12 spells. Cyclone being used for spells means it's a melee spell, like lightning tendrils. Except it allows you to move while casting. Either way, its a spell build.

This is the thing: yes molten strike is pretty good. How can ggg think they need to do ANYTHING for spells with this shit going on?

If you have any idea what the fuck you're doing as a balance team you don't see this and decide to work on spells. That's just not how balance works. And it's not like this is fucking new, its been like this FOR YEARS

I'm fucking fed up with it and so are a lot of other people

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

ciel289 wrote:

ofc these 2 powerfull melee skils dont matter,because the 3rd one is at place 20... (same excuse as always)

so lets go with the top 20:

3 melee
7 spells
5 attacks
2 vaal versions of already listed skills
1 minion/buff (herald of agony)
1 trap
1 buff (righteous fire)

some of the spells will be used as trap/totems/coc so they consist of more than 1 playstyle

if coc is melee or spell for cyclone is debatable,because the dmg soruces might be spells but you are still in melee range to proc it with cyclone.

considering that a big part of spells is used in a different playstyle or is a new/changed skill,that is extremly likely to be used more than "normal" (next or other future leagues) those stats arent bad for melee usage.

What you just listed there is 2 melee and 12 spells. Cyclone being used for spells means it's a melee spell, like lightning tendrils. Except it allows you to move while casting. Either way, its a spell build.

This is the thing: yes molten strike is pretty good. How can ggg think they need to do ANYTHING for spells with this shit going on?

If you have any idea what the fuck you're doing as a balance team you don't see this and decide to work on spells. That's just not how balance works. And it's not like this is fucking new, its been like this FOR YEARS

I'm fucking fed up with it and so are a lot of other people

you keep making up excuse why melee skill x doesnt count,but when you are counting the spells for comparison you dont make any exceptions no matter how much different there usage is.

there is a huge gap between trap/totem spells and selfcasting

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

"

ciel289 wrote:

ofc these 2 powerfull melee skils dont matter,because the 3rd one is at place 20... (same excuse as always)

so lets go with the top 20:

3 melee
7 spells
5 attacks
2 vaal versions of already listed skills
1 minion/buff (herald of agony)
1 trap
1 buff (righteous fire)

some of the spells will be used as trap/totems/coc so they consist of more than 1 playstyle

if coc is melee or spell for cyclone is debatable,because the dmg soruces might be spells but you are still in melee range to proc it with cyclone.

considering that a big part of spells is used in a different playstyle or is a new/changed skill,that is extremly likely to be used more than "normal" (next or other future leagues) those stats arent bad for melee usage.

What you just listed there is 2 melee and 12 spells. Cyclone being used for spells means it's a melee spell, like lightning tendrils. Except it allows you to move while casting. Either way, its a spell build.

This is the thing: yes molten strike is pretty good. How can ggg think they need to do ANYTHING for spells with this shit going on?

If you have any idea what the fuck you're doing as a balance team you don't see this and decide to work on spells. That's just not how balance works. And it's not like this is fucking new, its been like this FOR YEARS

I'm fucking fed up with it and so are a lot of other people

you keep making up excuse why melee skill x doesnt count,but when you are counting the spells for comparison you dont make any exceptions no matter how much different there usage is.

there is a huge gap between trap/totem spells and selfcasting

"

ciel289 wrote:

you keep making up excuse why melee skill x doesnt count,but when you are counting the spells for comparison you dont make any exceptions no matter how much different there usage is.

there is a huge gap between trap/totem spells and selfcasting

Lol what? I counted every melee skill and spell on your list. You simply called a bunch of different ways to cast spells as something that isn't a spell.

What you did would be like if I broke up melee into projectile melee, aoe melee, single target melee, coc melee, totem melee, and counter melee and then said there weren't any totem melee there.

Yes I am only asking for splash to be added to what Fruz calls "legatus melee", but that has nothing to do with this particular comment - here I'm simply pointing out the contradiction in your own post. It's hilariously ironic that you people keep accusing me of things you're ACTUALLY doing when I'm NOT actually even doing those things.

Do you guys all get together and learn how to project onto other people as part of a club every Friday or something?

I agree with your concept that self cast is not as good as auto cast, at least, but if you're going to break up spells you need to break up melee or if you're not breaking up melee then don't break up spells. By your standards there aren't any melee up there at all, and no matter how you divide the skills there's still way more spell up there.

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Fruz wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

There was no change in context, the point of the op was that they are fixing spells and doing fuck all about melee when the skills listed there ARE FAR LESS BALANCED than any spell

Which is all 100% fact

Shock nova.

This comment, heh.

Here's a Mathil video clearing maps with shock nova today (yesterday), looks pretty OP to me as a VS player. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP369h1Vv0w

I hesitate to make this post because this thread is extremely old, but I thought it would be interesting (and it's still relevant) seeing a mathil shock nova build in action right here today after the "melee patch", when people were using shock nova as an example of a "bad spell".

Mathil correctly identifies the aoe scaling on spells as the reason you cannot compete with spells as a true melee player (IE, using melee splash). Which is the reason I still call for aoe buffs to melee splash or larger inherent aoe to all the melee gems. We got a melee patch but it isn't allowing true melee to clear as fast as spells - and I mentioned, with multiple threads in all caps, that this is the required result. GGG pulled out all the stops and we still don't have that.

Still.

I STILL suggest larger aoe on all melee, projectile/proliferation, or "autoattacking" (read as: counter to the autocasting of worb or mirage archer) on their effects or other such buffs that allow for faster clearing as the "fix" to melee vs spells/ranged. I don't see another alternative, and GGG tried their damned hardest to make melee good without giving melee a generic aoe buff. I think the evidence is clear.

lolz. actually glad this was bumped. it's a fun read now.