Path of Exile, Gameplay Criticism

It's a shame to be only discussing the damn death penalty when the thread starter raised some other more important issues. And even IF the death penalty is not serving its purpose, that's probably a result of those other issues like the gear/class system.

I doubt that any person in his right mind would quit a league, if it's interesting and engaging, because of the death penalty.

"

Jdahl22 wrote:

It's a shame to be only discussing the damn death penalty when the thread starter raised some other more important issues. And even IF the death penalty is not serving its purpose, that's probably a result of those other issues like the gear/class system.

I doubt that any person in his right mind would quit a league, if it's interesting and engaging, because of the death penalty.

That is completely true. It's just that the DP is the one single place where all the other failures get shown mercilessly. If every death was considered fair, nobody would complain of the DP, even if it is suboptimal. Most would be willing to accept a punishment for genuine failure.

"

Qiu_Qiu wrote:

"

Johny_Snow wrote:

So many conspiracy theories about players quitting because of insignificant things like deaths and not the big ones like crappy trading and technical problems. For shame.

The question isn't whether some players are quitting because of the death penalty (after all, I did), but how many.

Obviously not enough for GGG to expend any resources to address it.

"

Khalixxa wrote:

Damage spikes can occur, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a telegraphed mechanic. For example, damage that a melee character can't avoid, that happens to come in faster than they can hit an instant heal flask. You can say, "they need better gear or more life nodes", but the speed of the event is what I'm focusing on.

I think we agree enough on this point otherwise.

Not "super deadly ones that would one shot pretty much anybody" as many seem to pretend.

Sure, in a t16 map with 3 damage mods, if you see a group of blue colossal skeletons + one big rare with them and you jump into it .... there is the possibility to get instantly destroyed if the stars align, but that is something that the player could have avoided.

If you build absolutely no defenses, then some things will destroy you.

But if you build a balanced character with correct defenses and offense, things don't just "one-shot" or even instantly kill you out of the blue, even in the highest maps.
If a high map has really hard mods, you need to be very careful because things can go pretty fast still, but I don't see a problem with one of the hardest content in the game being potentially scary.

"

Khalixxa wrote:

"

Xtorma wrote:

You haven't built a consensus agreeing that the death penalties are a problem. My rationale for not increasing or decreasing death penalties is that they are "fine" (good, satisfactory). I don't need any other reason.

What does it take for something to be "fine"? Can you give examples of things that are not "fine"?

If you play the game at a 'correct' pace (so not super clear speed meta, but still somewhat comfortable, not try-harding but not progressing like a slug either) .. the current death penalty sets you back a tiny bit before level 80, nothing really bad.
Between 80-85, it starts having a bit more of a noticeable effect, and if you keep dying, your progression starts being quite hindered.
Between 85-90, you need to start really paying more attention if you are dying quite a bit.
Past 90, if you die often, you just don't progress anymore.

So the progression is progressively being hindered if you die often, at a point where you cannot progress anymore as the way you play or build your character isn't good enough.
That point is around lvl 90 I would say, if your character is really bad, it could be at lvl 80 too.

That feels about right to me, the grind past 90 does not bring much power for the time invested and is only for those who really want to.
Before that, the penalty on death is an effect noticeable enough to "punish" bad builds/players, without completely screwing them up unless there is really a problem with their character/playstyle.

It could be slightly more harsh, lvl 80 could be the point from which the death penalty starts being really severe if GGG wanted to, but with the current curve, that would make the grind to 95~100 much, much harder, which isn't really necessary I think.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

"

ReinEuthanasia wrote:

Then why not a portal for each player in the party?

we already have this implemented in zana quests.
you start with 6 portals from your ho because you can add players to your party after you open the map.

Exactly, parties do not get "locked" after you open a map, there can be player disconnections, you can add another player, you can kick a player that did something you don't like, etc ...

"

robmafia wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKgvHRzt3ao&t=1h11m23s

This one part of that interview is just the exact answer, thx for that one!

You know why I hate death penalty?

Because it punish you for playing the game.

The game is hella boring if it doesnt kill you. It also means its superbly easy if you can do it without deaths.

Imagine playing Dark Souls Prepare to Die without dying. It wouldnt be dark souls at all. The title itself wouldnt make sense.
Imagine playing any hardcore game or rogue game where you dont die. Those games are designed around whooping your arse. Thats the fun, checking your progress as a player and thus also creating really epic moments in gameplay.

It also feels much more rewarding for player, if he finnaly finish something that deleted him 10 or more times.

In order for a game to be good, it must be able to kill you, but fair and square. No matter how good you are, it should be always challanging. Remember games come out of sport, sport is based on challange and competition. Remove those two and it is no game anymore, its more like a TV show.

Thats why we shouldnt even see people here that can avoid death all the time.

You tell the player "git gut".
I tell the game to "git gut" if it cannot kill you.

Fruz, thank you for answering the question.

"

Fruz wrote:

If you play the game at a 'correct' pace (so not super clear speed meta, but still somewhat comfortable, not try-harding but not progressing like a slug either) .. the current death penalty sets you back a tiny bit before level 80, nothing really bad.
Between 80-85, it starts having a bit more of a noticeable effect, and if you keep dying, your progression starts being quite hindered.
Between 85-90, you need to start really paying more attention if you are dying quite a bit.
Past 90, if you die often, you just don't progress anymore.

So the progression is progressively being hindered if you die often, at a point where you cannot progress anymore as the way you play or build your character isn't good enough.
That point is around lvl 90 I would say, if your character is really bad, it could be at lvl 80 too.

That feels about right to me, the grind past 90 does not bring much power for the time invested and is only for those who really want to.
Before that, the penalty on death is an effect noticeable enough to "punish" bad builds/players, without completely screwing them up unless there is really a problem with their character/playstyle.

It could be slightly more harsh, lvl 80 could be the point from which the death penalty starts being really severe if GGG wanted to, but with the current curve, that would make the grind to 95~100 much, much harder, which isn't really necessary I think.

So, I think what you're saying is, a penalty should be used to shape the distribution of player progress. For example, dialing up the penalty will lower the average player level and slow the average rate of progression.

I completely agree with you. But, I am concerned about how important penalties are in determining this distribution, and what costs they have in other areas of the game.

Do you think think we could create your desired effect, but through other means that don't rely quite as heavily on a penalty? (for example, increasing technical gameplay difficulty, encouraging team play, addressing power creep, etc.)

"

herflik wrote:

You know why I hate death penalty?

Because it punish you for playing the game.

The game is hella boring if it doesnt kill you. It also means its superbly easy if you can do it without deaths.

Imagine playing Dark Souls Prepare to Die without dying. It wouldnt be dark souls at all. The title itself wouldnt make sense.
Imagine playing any hardcore game or rogue game where you dont die. Those games are designed around whooping your arse. Thats the fun, checking your progress as a player and thus also creating really epic moments in gameplay.

It also feels much more rewarding for player, if he finnaly finish something that deleted him 10 or more times.

In order for a game to be good, it must be able to kill you, but fair and square. No matter how good you are, it should be always challanging. Remember games come out of sport, sport is based on challange and competition. Remove those two and it is no game anymore, its more like a TV show.

Thats why we shouldnt even see people here that can avoid death all the time.

You tell the player "git gut".
I tell the game to "git gut" if it cannot kill you.

assuming you mean rogue-like... well, terrible example.

poe hc is basically that. upon death, the char is dead. but you can make a new one and have access to all the resources the previous one(s) had (ie: stash).

softcore... is far less punishing than that.

mentioning roguelikes is essentially an antonym for your stance.

Very good video and feedback. Don't think i have ever seen anyone doing such quality feedback here. Atleast not in a video format.

About movement skills. The other reason they are so much used is fortify.
I don't know if this is good or bad for the game but i think that support gem was meant for melee charachters only.

"

Khalixxa wrote:

Fruz, thank you for answering the question.

"

Fruz wrote:

If you play the game at a 'correct' pace (so not super clear speed meta, but still somewhat comfortable, not try-harding but not progressing like a slug either) .. the current death penalty sets you back a tiny bit before level 80, nothing really bad.
Between 80-85, it starts having a bit more of a noticeable effect, and if you keep dying, your progression starts being quite hindered.
Between 85-90, you need to start really paying more attention if you are dying quite a bit.
Past 90, if you die often, you just don't progress anymore.

So the progression is progressively being hindered if you die often, at a point where you cannot progress anymore as the way you play or build your character isn't good enough.
That point is around lvl 90 I would say, if your character is really bad, it could be at lvl 80 too.

That feels about right to me, the grind past 90 does not bring much power for the time invested and is only for those who really want to.
Before that, the penalty on death is an effect noticeable enough to "punish" bad builds/players, without completely screwing them up unless there is really a problem with their character/playstyle.

It could be slightly more harsh, lvl 80 could be the point from which the death penalty starts being really severe if GGG wanted to, but with the current curve, that would make the grind to 95~100 much, much harder, which isn't really necessary I think.

So, I think what you're saying is, a penalty should be used to shape the distribution of player progress. For example, dialing up the penalty will lower the average player level and slow the average rate of progression.

I completely agree with you. But, I am concerned about how important penalties are in determining this distribution, and what costs they have in other areas of the game.

Do you think think we could create your desired effect, but through other means that don't rely quite as heavily on a penalty? (for example, increasing technical gameplay difficulty, encouraging team play, addressing power creep, etc.)

This is getting like the Jordan Peterson interview with cathy newman

So what you are saying is.....

"

Khalixxa wrote:

This is my best shot at summarizing the gameplay problems of POE, how they are connected and how to solve them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3WkaqDYtXQ

(I don't talk much about item/loot related issues; only the gameplay)

Thanks for watching. I hope this can help make the game better.

When first spying this thread I thought it was the usual clickbait to pointless brief youtube videos with narrow relevance. I've finally seen it now, and thank you for making a great video :-)

Some of the key issues are well explained, and I agree with you. Maybe especially what you refer to as "rate wars" and the death penalty. It's a good game and I have had lots of fun with, but OMG do they have some serious issues to resolve. It's like they've painted themselves into a corner, and are now stuck there. I hope they are able to think more outside the box they have made for themselves, but I'm honestly not very optimistic when I see how the game has evolved over the last few leagues.

As a relatively new player, the main thought I have about the game is that many core features are terribly unbalanced. You didn't specifically mention this in the video, but what I found really weird in this game at first, and still do, is how quickly 99% of mobs die, and then suddenly you get one-shot out of the blue. It's related to the rate wars ofc. You get hit here and there (but mostly kill enemies before they can react), but regen or the odd life flask rectifies it. Until the planets align against you or the wrong enemy crits you or something, and you get one-shot. Full health. BAM. Reload at Checkpoint/Town.

The consequence, heavily related to the stark XP death penalty past point 90, is that people who want to level often don't risk the toughest content, even some of the main content. You have hordes of people not taking on map bosses. And this league you have hordes of people locking away the syndicates, the central league mechanic, into the ground. I stupidly released them after I hit level 92, but a bunch of one-shots or pileups later, and they are again locked away. The risk is pretty darn extreme, and the rewards almost non-existent.

I think the game needs a very serious shakeup, where GGG look at everything with fresh eyes, no sacred cows, look at it all. In more naive moments I hope they do that for 4.0 -- but I honestly don't believe it. Nothing they've done over the leagues I've been playing the game indicates they want such a big shake-up. And every time I get a character into level 85-90 territory, the layers upon layers of RNG grind and one-shots burn me out.

Thank you for making a good video laying out these things.