70 Hours and already burned out, how do you do it?

Chess is one of the worst time sinks ever... Call it a life sink. Poe is not even close... not even the same zip code lol.

Chess consumes...

NS

"

ImmortalCX wrote:

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Powbleeder wrote:

Ok the way I see it, you still don't quite get it. You even decided the IGN review was accurate, which while some parts are, is a disgusting representation of the game. Here's the thing: You don't need to do the endgame content to properly understand the game unlike what all these other people are saying. What you do need to understand is what the appeal is, but it seems like you're seeing the appeal of the game as a complete weakness and nothing but negative when it's what keep people enjoying it for thousands of hours. I've played and studied chess recreationally before and the approach to PoE is honestly extremely similar. They are both based on knowledge. In both, time is certainly important, knowledge on how to get through the process separates how far people go. Honestly, it seems like you're already just set on your conclusions and have a closed mind to all this. You are free to disagree, but you're only doing so by ignoring literally everyone who has taken the time to respond to you while still not understanding what the game has to offer.

I used to play chess too. Have a stack of books I studied.

There are some serious things missing from PoE that chess has. PoE is not PvP, success in the game is based on time, not talent. You are not actually pitted against other players, the eventual outcome/goal of the game is to accumulate currency and items which you might screenshot or make videos.

Everyone here has played games with elaborate economies and trading; figuring out PoEs trading/economy is not that complicated. But what it comes down to is putting in the time, getting ahead of the curve to abuse the economy and get enough of a currency advantage so you can develop and test out builds that can AFK uber elder. BoringAF. Its just a race to the bottom.

At least in chess, if you study properly, a high IQ and ability to visualize moves might actually set you apart from the masses.

"

I used to play chess too. Have a stack of books I studied.

There are some serious things missing from PoE that chess has. PoE is not PvP, success in the game is based on time, not talent. You are not actually pitted against other players, the eventual outcome/goal of the game is to accumulate currency and items which you might screenshot or make videos.

Everyone here has played games with elaborate economies and trading; figuring out PoEs trading/economy is not that complicated. But what it comes down to is putting in the time, getting ahead of the curve to abuse the economy and get enough of a currency advantage so you can develop and test out builds that can AFK uber elder. BoringAF. Its just a race to the bottom.

At least in chess, if you study properly, a high IQ and ability to visualize moves might actually set you apart from the masses.

Yes, PoE doesn't have talent involved in it. But success in the game is more than just time. There are people who have played thousands of hours and are still complete beginners compared to the top players in terms of knowledge and skill. And yes, you are not pitted against other players, but honestly what's wrong with that? Not every game needs to be competitive. You did get the eventual outcome somewhat correct though. But it's not the final currency and items. It's the process getting there and the final outcome is just the result. And you really think chess doesn't require time investment? Grandmasters study like 10 hours a day to keep ahead of the curve.

Here, getting ahead of the curve to abuse the economy and currency advantage is partly putting in the time. However, you are still competing against other players who are doing the exact same thing but do it faster than you do with strategies they may have figured out themselves. And on your second point about developing and testing out builds that can afk uber elder, I don't see what's wrong with that. First, not everyone plays like that. Second, becoming a god and destroying content is a major appeal of the game. It might be a boring for you, but the process getting there is very appealing to the players.

The game might not be as hard or as deep as chess, but theorycrafting and the strategies involved are certainly not brainless. The guides are there to show a part of what's possible. Don't believe the playerbase has already figured all the interactions out and put all the information in guides already, because that's simply not true.

"

Powbleeder wrote:

"

The game might not be as hard or as deep as chess, but theorycrafting and the strategies involved are certainly not brainless. The guides are there to show a part of what's possible. Don't believe the playerbase has already figured all the interactions out and put all the information in guides already, because that's simply not true.

Its not brainless, but the main complexity comes from the disorganized way in which the information is (not) presented.

There is an illusion that there is more choice than there is based on the huge number of gems which are only self documented. Many combinations don't work out, aren't designed to work out, but it doesn't matter because they won't effect meta or progression. Its further obfuscated by the fact that multiple skill gems are "functionally equivalent", they can achieve the same result if matched with the correct passive chioces.

Builds are influenced "organically" because not all gem slot color combinations are initially available, which means that a player needs to find "substitutions" that work until he can buy the gear with the right slots. Which all just comes down to efficiency and time.

Have fun with your new expansion; wish I could enjoy it in the same way.

Wait, you've put 70 (50) hours in and you're in act9?

I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but you're doing something terribly wrong. You should be able to clear all ten acts with just a dozen or so hours.

The game doesn't even begin until you're doing mid tier Maps in my opinion. That being said, you make a few good points.

There's a bit of the 'gamblers high' thing but most of it is that it really is difficult to complete the end game content. You really do feel your character grow in strength over time. There's a serious progression curve for Path of Exile and it's quite rewarding in the long term.

I think I have 800 hours clocked and I haven't finished all the content available. The core gameplay does revolve around clearing areas as quickly as possible though, speed isn't necessary but being ineffecient isn't rewarding so theres definitely a logical push towards clearing as fast as possible. That being said there are all sorts of build styles that favor a slower pace and give you more survivability. ( You definitely need more survivability as you progress )

"

Defiants wrote:

I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but you're doing something terribly wrong. You should be able to clear all ten acts with just a dozen or so hours.
)

Lots of things contribute to it taking longer:

*Only playing in small increments of time (30 minutes each) means have to clear maps again to find exits. This alone could nearly double time instead of powering through.

*Delve parallel game mode taking up a bunch of hours without advancing the story mode.

*Picking up and selling every yellow. Returning to town using the waypoints instead of scrolls to unload inventory multiple times per stage.

*Screwing around with stash and inventory to make space for many unique items "just in case".

*Stopping to read the npc story quest.

*Getting pwned by Labyrinth (and some other bosses) before reading a build guide to understand what to do.

*Changing said build to match guide.

*Keeping the game open and studying the contents of the passive tree without using an external build tool.

*Keeping the game open during football games and only playing during commercials.

*Not caring how long it actually takes. Realizing that my progression speed is roughly the same as the guy who did the IGN review and that typical gamers under-report how long things take to make themselves feel superior.

Take your pick.

OP, you're correct in many ways. This game is extremely shallow and ultimately hollow when it comes to the gameplay aspect of it. Combat itself just will not feel adequate at all as it boils down to one-shotting large groups without a problem or eventually finding something that can one shot you (ignoring the gimmicky immortal builds which got nerfed this patch).

The RNG is one of the most insidious parts of this game, almost built like a freemium game trap. You start out getting nice item upgrades at the start to get that dopamine rush and then they get spaced out to try to hook you into continue playing. This is best explained by Chris Wilson himself when he tells you why they use RNG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lPspSM6_EE&t=44m39s

When the CEO of a company is describing a psychological method of influencing behavior being used as a base mechanic for a video game, that's the point where I cannot truly abide with the game. This "real rng" is what leads to so many people to dump their hours into this game in search of that next rare drop for that dopamine rush. People are conditioned and hooked into grinding hours things they do not truly enjoy looking for the good dopamine rushes they previously got.

But, that's not the only somewhat insidious background built around it. Forcing drop rates to be balanced around the economy may have also been a deliberate choice to force envy. What I mean about this is that it helps reinforce the skinner box side of this game wherein if you get a shiny object, people don't sit on it, people are extremely likely to spam it to reddit or global chat to whoever can see it so they may say "look what I got".

This leads to two very reinforcing conclusions. One, people will envy those rare drops because due to the skinner box RNG, they never got one. Two, people will desire to be envied, to be elevated in status by virtue of having good RNG.

This inherent envy behind this system ultimately magnifies that skinner box and dopamine rush that Chris Wilson talks about because now it's compounded by peer and community pressure within the game, to continue and get that rare drop and achieve that elevated status.

But, got to be honest, it's one heck of a way to build a customer base. Addicts are too addicted to clearly see or handle criticism, and often reinforce any other player who happens to fall into this game and community. And, as they're addicted, they'll constantly talk/think about it and that's free marketing.

Heck, trying to validly criticize anything in this game will often be met with "I'm superior to you, envy me (or my drops)" when the baseline combat of this game falls flat in so many ways. You can't point out the simplicity of the passive tree with heatmaps, that would go against that sense of superiority. You can't point out that the game is more RNG/build focused than piloting skill focused, that would again go against the feeling of superiority.

All in all, if you're burned out on this game, be glad you didn't fall into the trap of it. Addiction is a terrible thing.

I can see where's the OP coming from. Dopamine depletion, possibly ADHD. For "normal" people it would be the best described by playing 6/10 games in their youth and enjoying them, while being very picky about 8/10 games nowadays. OP speaks the truth and people who oppose him also speak tge truth. It takes certain brain chemistry to enjoy the grind. There is also an objective truth that people who are "slow" = can't run maps back to back, pause a lot, get distracted, alch maps too long, pick up loot too long will possibly not enjoy the game because there is no progress.

"

OP, you're correct in many ways. This game is extremely shallow and ultimately hollow when it comes to the gameplay aspect of it. Combat itself just will not feel adequate at all as it boils down to one-shotting large groups without a problem or eventually finding something that can one shot you (ignoring the gimmicky immortal builds which got nerfed this patch).

I don't believe anyone within the community disagrees with this statement though. The combat of the game is, in fact, very weak and feels inadequate. However, balancing around redoing the combat system is a monumental task that could make or break the game entirely.

"

When the CEO of a company is describing a psychological method of influencing behavior being used as a base mechanic for a video game, that's the point where I cannot truly abide with the game. This "real rng" is what leads to so many people to dump their hours into this game in search of that next rare drop for that dopamine rush. People are conditioned and hooked into grinding hours things they do not truly enjoy looking for the good dopamine rushes they previously got.

Except this conditioning to look for a dopamine rush literally describes almost every video game and most hobbies out there? Idk about you, but I like to feel like I made progress no matter if it's a game, a raise, a personal result in a sport/hobby, etc. It's literally how humans and animals are built.

"

But, got to be honest, it's one heck of a way to build a customer base. Addicts are too addicted to clearly see or handle criticism, and often reinforce any other player who happens to fall into this game and community. And, as they're addicted, they'll constantly talk/think about it and that's free marketing.

Heck, trying to validly criticize anything in this game will often be met with "I'm superior to you, envy me (or my drops)" when the baseline combat of this game falls flat in so many ways. You can't point out the simplicity of the passive tree with heatmaps, that would go against that sense of superiority. You can't point out that the game is more RNG/build focused than piloting skill focused, that would again go against the feeling of superiority.

This is just armchair psychologist bullshit here. The baseline combat is poor, but literally no one will disagree with you there. People are content with it though. The "simplicity" of the passive tree through heat maps are a result of min-maxing for optimal results, and are different depending on how you're tailoring it. When you get a custom tailored shirt, you still expect the it to be a fucking shirt and not fucking pants. The rules are still in place.

Look at all the complaints everywhere on the forum threads or reddit threads on PoE. You think there isn't criticism? Stop using these sweeping generalizations that are objectively false and then maybe people take your "valid criticism" seriously and make an actually discussion out of it.

"

Dispassion wrote:

Spoiler

OP, you're correct in many ways. This game is extremely shallow and ultimately hollow when it comes to the gameplay aspect of it. Combat itself just will not feel adequate at all as it boils down to one-shotting large groups without a problem or eventually finding something that can one shot you (ignoring the gimmicky immortal builds which got nerfed this patch).

The RNG is one of the most insidious parts of this game, almost built like a freemium game trap. You start out getting nice item upgrades at the start to get that dopamine rush and then they get spaced out to try to hook you into continue playing. This is best explained by Chris Wilson himself when he tells you why they use RNG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lPspSM6_EE&t=44m39s

When the CEO of a company is describing a psychological method of influencing behavior being used as a base mechanic for a video game, that's the point where I cannot truly abide with the game. This "real rng" is what leads to so many people to dump their hours into this game in search of that next rare drop for that dopamine rush. People are conditioned and hooked into grinding hours things they do not truly enjoy looking for the good dopamine rushes they previously got.

But, that's not the only somewhat insidious background built around it. Forcing drop rates to be balanced around the economy may have also been a deliberate choice to force envy. What I mean about this is that it helps reinforce the skinner box side of this game wherein if you get a shiny object, people don't sit on it, people are extremely likely to spam it to reddit or global chat to whoever can see it so they may say "look what I got".

This leads to two very reinforcing conclusions. One, people will envy those rare drops because due to the skinner box RNG, they never got one. Two, people will desire to be envied, to be elevated in status by virtue of having good RNG.

This inherent envy behind this system ultimately magnifies that skinner box and dopamine rush that Chris Wilson talks about because now it's compounded by peer and community pressure within the game, to continue and get that rare drop and achieve that elevated status.

But, got to be honest, it's one heck of a way to build a customer base. Addicts are too addicted to clearly see or handle criticism, and often reinforce any other player who happens to fall into this game and community. And, as they're addicted, they'll constantly talk/think about it and that's free marketing.

Heck, trying to validly criticize anything in this game will often be met with "I'm superior to you, envy me (or my drops)" when the baseline combat of this game falls flat in so many ways. You can't point out the simplicity of the passive tree with heatmaps, that would go against that sense of superiority. You can't point out that the game is more RNG/build focused than piloting skill focused, that would again go against the feeling of superiority.

All in all, if you're burned out on this game, be glad you didn't fall into the trap of it. Addiction is a terrible thing.

Adding a bit more to this now that I've further thought through this.

Envy is the primary reason why people are against adjusting RNG to favor the player or adjusting all items to be useful.

"If every item is good, no item is good" can be an expression of desiring to be envied here.

Goodness in terms of an item is in reference to currency value to other players, or in game power relative to others (which affects its corresponding rarity). Players that usually ask for better RNG like in terms of 6L/t1 affixes/uniques more common are usually met with this "If every item is good, no item is good" line in some form or fashion.

"If X are too common, X become worthless". Worthless how? Price on the player market? Let's take 6L for example. Logic would say that 6L's are not worthless as they can still be used in a build somewhere. If the player making this comment is referencing the player market, it's more often a reference to them feeling superior or special for having obtained an item, which is entirely through RNG. I'll point out the contradiction here.

Some of the same people who purport to say "ignore what other people are doing" are against raised RNG rates because "it'd make X worthless". When further questioned as to how that would negatively affect them when they're only focused on their own builds and items and not what others are doing, they can't really answer.

How would more people having super rare X be bad? Their position of envy would be in jeopardy, even if they too got one.

"

Powbleeder wrote:

Except this conditioning to look for a dopamine rush literally describes almost every video game and most hobbies out there? Idk about you, but I like to feel like I made progress no matter if it's a game, a raise, a personal result in a sport/hobby, etc. It's literally how humans and animals are built.

Most video games aren't explicitly built with that effect in mind. There's many different draws to hobbies/video games not explicitly tied to a dopamine rush that exists in this game. I've never seen someone knocking over a chair in excitement from reading a book, rather a curiosity fulfilled. However, I've seen many such manic reactions just from obtaining t1 affixes on loot in this game.

Heck, there's people that described that adrenaline/blood pumping rush just from seeing a mirror or exalted orb drop. The dopamine rush here is on a completely different level.

And, not all hobbies/activities are the same. Some are productive and build the person/community up. Others don't or end up being destructive.

"

This is just armchair psychologist bullshit here. The baseline combat is poor, but literally no one will disagree with you there. People are content with it though. The "simplicity" of the passive tree through heat maps are a result of min-maxing for optimal results, and are different depending on how you're tailoring it. When you get a custom tailored shirt, you still expect the it to be a fucking shirt and not fucking pants. The rules are still in place.

If you say so. I'm merely stating what I've seen and what I think it amounts to. The simplicity of the passive tree 98% of the time boils down to Effective HP, Damage, and avoidance if going that route. You say the heatmap is for min-maxing for optimal results, but you're ignoring the huge part is would there ever be a point to not min-max?

Yeah, different builds would be tailored to different points on the skill tree, but still boils down to HP/Damage/Avoidance.

I find your analogy of shirts and pants to miss my point and fall flat. We're not comparing shirts to pants because they're fundamentally different. We're comparing shirts to shirts which is analogy to passive tree to passive tree. Some shirts will have buttons, some will have slightly longer sleeves, but a shirt is a shirt. Every functional build will have the prerequisite damage/hp/avoidance just as every shirt will somehow cover your torso.

"

Look at all the complaints everywhere on the forum threads or reddit threads on PoE. You think there isn't criticism? Stop using these sweeping generalizations that are objectively false and then maybe people take your "valid criticism" seriously and make an actually discussion out of it.

I have looked at the complaints everywhere. And then I read the responses to those complaints by the community. My original post to this thread is what I've seen.

And why is nobody pointing out that the RNG in this game is knowingly based on a skinner box?