70 Hours and already burned out, how do you do it?

"

Most video games aren't explicitly built with that effect in mind. There's many different draws to hobbies/video games not explicitly tied to a dopamine rush that exists in this game. I've never seen someone knocking over a chair in excitement from reading a book, rather a curiosity fulfilled. However, I've seen many such manic reactions just from obtaining t1 affixes on loot in this game.

Heck, there's people that described that adrenaline/blood pumping rush just from seeing a mirror or exalted orb drop. The dopamine rush here is on a completely different level.

And, not all hobbies/activities are the same. Some are productive and build the person/community up. Others don't or end up being destructive.

Idk I've seen some people who have reacted pretty manicly from reading books. Maybe slightly more subdued to the reactions of sports matches. Are the manic reactions to or in a sports match inherently bad? Also, keep in mind that those reactions you see are only people who have recorded it. There's a bias there. Not everyone reacts like that. I raised my eyebrows and laughed a bit when I dropped a mirror. In the profession of streaming, reacting is essentially their job.

"

If you say so. I'm merely stating what I've seen and what I think it amounts to. The simplicity of the passive tree 98% of the time boils down to Effective HP, Damage, and avoidance if going that route. You say the heatmap is for min-maxing for optimal results, but you're ignoring the huge part is would there ever be a point to not min-max?

Yeah, different builds would be tailored to different points on the skill tree, but still boils down to HP/Damage/Avoidance.

I find your analogy of shirts and pants to miss my point and fall flat. We're not comparing shirts to pants because they're fundamentally different. We're comparing shirts to shirts which is analogy to passive tree to passive tree. Some shirts will have buttons, some will have slightly longer sleeves, but a shirt is a shirt. Every functional build will have the prerequisite damage/hp/avoidance just as every shirt will somehow cover your torso.

Except I don't agree that it's as simple as you've stated. I can say the same thing about chess. They all follow time-tested openings and there's only 6 pieces. It all boils down to moving them to the correct squares. Except the nuances in that make it much more than just that. The min-maxing is based on your interactions with your gear and the method you want to scale your offenses and defenses. There's advantages and disadvantages of building a character in each way whether that be budget or whatever else. The heat map only shows what's popular. Not necessarily what's effective for different scenarios and playstyles.

How does the analogy fall flat? You supported it yourself. You said some will have buttons, some have longer sleeves, a shirt is a shirt. That's exactly what I mean. You can't expect a build to pick random nodes from other parts of the tree, and when it doesn't work out, complain that there's no customization to it. It's not even a shirt anymore.

"

I have looked at the complaints everywhere. And then I read the responses to those complaints by the community. My original post to this thread is what I've seen.

And why is nobody pointing out that the RNG in this game is knowingly based on a skinner box?

I have too and while I don't agree with many of the complaints, I don't agree with your interpretation either.

Also lol people have pointed out the rng is a skinner box thing. Look at this youtube video that had a ton of people watch and agree with exactly that right in the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PAjWI4sO6Y

People simply believe that the game is well put together enough that it has appeals that outweigh its problems. Rng is a problem everyone complains about. Look at how many people hated the rng aspect of map drops, aul spawns, bestiary tigers, abyss liches, unique drops, alch drops, so on and so forth. But at the same time, I also think they shouldn't only balance around making everything available. Instead, a wide range of accessibility including the people who want to grind for stuff have chase items to go for. I know I may never get it, but that's not for me and I like having stuff being just out of reach so that I can go for it. And I think people will agree with this point.

this:

"

ImmortalCX wrote:

I suspect addiction and avoidance behavior is behind most of the hours logged in PoE.

and this:

"

ImmortalCX wrote:

Serious question, do you long term players get a gambler's high when an expensive piece of gear drops? Is that what keeps you playing?

= truth

gotta get dat phat dopamine hit
cos i sure aint gna get it from real life

gotta keep in mind tho, that a lot of ppl who do play the game for this reason, wont even be aware of it.

"

Powbleeder wrote:

Idk I've seen some people who have reacted pretty manicly from reading books. Maybe slightly more subdued to the reactions of sports matches. Are the manic reactions to or in a sports match inherently bad? Also, keep in mind that those reactions you see are only people who have recorded it. There's a bias there. Not everyone reacts like that. I raised my eyebrows and laughed a bit when I dropped a mirror. In the profession of streaming, reacting is essentially their job.

The context of the manic reaction is what determines whether it's good or bad. Wife is pregnant, family you thought dead returning, winning a tournament on skill would be appropriate. This game isn't.

Also, I'm not sure if this view is as biased as you think. As I've said, one of the first things you'll see in any of the global chats is people linking whatever super rare thing they've found, same as on reddit. Why do you think that is? Why are they not content enough to just have it and use what they've gotten, but instead link? It's one thing to share a success with family and friends you know and see everyday, but different when it comes to a large group of people you don't know.

"

Except I don't agree that it's as simple as you've stated. I can say the same thing about chess. They all follow time-tested openings and there's only 6 pieces. It all boils down to moving them to the correct squares. Except the nuances in that make it much more than just that. The min-maxing is based on your interactions with your gear and the method you want to scale your offenses and defenses. There's advantages and disadvantages of building a character in each way whether that be budget or whatever else. The heat map only shows what's popular. Not necessarily what's effective for different scenarios and playstyles.

How does the analogy fall flat? You supported it yourself. You said some will have buttons, some have longer sleeves, a shirt is a shirt. That's exactly what I mean. You can't expect a build to pick random nodes from other parts of the tree, and when it doesn't work out, complain that there's no customization to it. It's not even a shirt anymore.

Significant difference in chess here. You're against an opponent that can change strategy any different number of ways as well as any possible psychological aspects such as running down the clock purposefully.

This game is different from that. Enemies will follow the same script every time that determines their actions (if they even live long enough to act).

Your analogy falls flat because the majority of the differences are mostly superficial. You're not going to ignore stacking effective health as much as you can. You're not going to ignore stacking damage as much as you can. Understanding this point simplifies the entire skill tree as you know what you actually need and all other things that do not do this are meaningless.

Now, you may determine that there are differences between melee/ranged/spell builds, but they're still going to follow this guideline. Even worse, the differences between different skillsets within those archetypes are extremely similar themselves.

Again, all differences are superficial. A shirt is a shirt.

"

I have too and while I don't agree with many of the complaints, I don't agree with your interpretation either.

Also lol people have pointed out the rng is a skinner box thing. Look at this youtube video that had a ton of people watch and agree with exactly that right in the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PAjWI4sO6Y

People simply believe that the game is well put together enough that it has appeals that outweigh its problems. Rng is a problem everyone complains about. Look at how many people hated the rng aspect of map drops, aul spawns, bestiary tigers, abyss liches, unique drops, alch drops, so on and so forth. But at the same time, I also think they shouldn't only balance around making everything available. Instead, a wide range of accessibility including the people who want to grind for stuff have chase items to go for. I know I may never get it, but that's not for me and I like having stuff being just out of reach so that I can go for it. And I think people will agree with this point.

I happen to agree with many of the complaints. It's fine if you don't agree with my interpretation.

As for your video, there's a significant difference here. The video you linked includes it as humor. The video I linked came out before the one you linked and has with it the CEO speaking about it with a tone of honesty and seriousness which makes the context all the more different.

As for your last point.

The entire RNG system I addressed as being a notion of enforcing envy at some points. That's what chase items literally are, items that people can show of and make others envy them. However, I disagree here in that challenges and challenge rewards should be the grind itself, not items. I'm a bit more pragmatic in my life. Through the leagues I've played, I've weighed and measured it all, and determined that this game just isn't worth it. There's simply too many things that are unsatisfying than there are things that are enjoyable. I'm never one to join the rat race, and the rest of the game I find more artificial frustration and RNG than anything that challenges me in terms of skill.

These last few points, however are completely besides the point. I've permanently shelved this game as it were.

My experiences have also changed how I view RNG in games now considering what I now know about this one.

It could even be argued that the login "queue" (having to wait) and the server outages are designed to drive demand and keep people playing.

Never seen a modern game with a login counter. (This many people in front of you). Thats not how server instancing works.

Looks like psychological engineering to me.

And no, it doesn't take a genius to design systems like this, just have to be a _______.

I had to write this. Watch the people streaming and posting videos on youtube. Watch them close. Aside from one or two, you can have a good idea of which part of society is drawn into this game. Now compare it with a mainstream game like WoW, the difference is very clear. For this reason GGG doesn't ban people who post racist, offensive comments or who scam others all day. GGG knows exactly whom they serve.

"

ImmortalCX wrote:

Never seen a modern game with a login counter. (This many people in front of you).

Never played a Blizzard game on launch day I see.

My biggest issue with the game is that after playing Grim Dawn i can't stand how zoomed in PoE is anymore. It doesn't even feel like an ARPG anymore, it's like, over the shoulder camera....

"

The context of the manic reaction is what determines whether it's good or bad. Wife is pregnant, family you thought dead returning, winning a tournament on skill would be appropriate. This game isn't.

And who are you to determine that getting excited over a game is negative? Seems like you're just arbitrarily deciding that people should never do that as if it was natural.

"

Also, I'm not sure if this view is as biased as you think. As I've said, one of the first things you'll see in any of the global chats is people linking whatever super rare thing they've found, same as on reddit. Why do you think that is? Why are they not content enough to just have it and use what they've gotten, but instead link? It's one thing to share a success with family and friends you know and see everyday, but different when it comes to a large group of people you don't know.
"

Again, why do you care about how others express it? I actually do agree that PoE can push their model further through the use of envy, but it seems like a strange thing to automatically not like the game for.

"

Significant difference in chess here. You're against an opponent that can change strategy any different number of ways as well as any possible psychological aspects such as running down the clock purposefully.

This game is different from that. Enemies will follow the same script every time that determines their actions (if they even live long enough to act).

Your analogy falls flat because the majority of the differences are mostly superficial. You're not going to ignore stacking effective health as much as you can. You're not going to ignore stacking damage as much as you can. Understanding this point simplifies the entire skill tree as you know what you actually need and all other things that do not do this are meaningless.

Now, you may determine that there are differences between melee/ranged/spell builds, but they're still going to follow this guideline. Even worse, the differences between different skillsets

What? This part here completely misses the point. I brought chess in not because it's a different game, but to show that there are some base rules that are always going to be the same no matter what. These are the "superficial" aspects of PoE that you've been pointing out. A piece will always move the same way no matter what. How it's done is where the nuance and game gets interesting. Same with PoE. The way you build your character and stack life, damage, etc. have their own subsets and limited passive skill tree points and item slots. Based on those, you puzzle them together differently depending on how you want to build it. The nuances are there. You're just comparing the games, not my argument.

And how does my analogy fall flat? Read what I just wrote above more carefully. I'm not going to ignore stacking life and damage. I'm finding new and interesting ways to do it and the resulting build differs greatly with each passive point I take and item I use.

"

Again, all differences are superficial. A shirt is a shirt.

Isn't that what I've been saying? You seem to want game-changing differences with each passive you put in.

"

As for your video, there's a significant difference here. The video you linked includes it as humor. The video I linked came out before the one you linked and has with it the CEO speaking about it with a tone of honesty and seriousness which makes the context all the more different.

That difference does not matter in the context of this argument. Humor does not make the video automatically false and neither does the context of it make it false. Humor is the way the information is presented. Nobody denied the information in it, even if it is presented in a slightly skewed way. People realize this is what they are going for and are fine with the game being the way it currently is. You just happen to not be and expect everyone else to have the same beliefs.

"

The entire RNG system I addressed as being a notion of enforcing envy at some points. That's what chase items literally are, items that people can show of and make others envy them. However, I disagree here in that challenges and challenge rewards should be the grind itself, not items. I'm a bit more pragmatic in my life. Through the leagues I've played, I've weighed and measured it all, and determined that this game just isn't worth it. There's simply too many things that are unsatisfying than there are things that are enjoyable. I'm never one to join the rat race, and the rest of the game I find more artificial frustration and RNG than anything that challenges me in terms of skill.

I never said the challenge rewards should be the grind itself. I said you set your own goals/choices to grind in PoE and this is just one aspect of it. Same with items. I also never disagreed with the enforcing of envy in the game. My problem with your arguments was never on that. It was on generalizing the game to the point of objective innacuracy and misrepresentation of it. Your replies seem to imply that you have an expectation for what the game should be, but are disappointed that it isn't that. Which is fine, but the majority of the playerbase have decided it's just fine the way it is and is only getting better.

Chess is a simple game that fascinates so many people they start doing it over and over again, eventually mastering the game. Please man, if you haven't even finished the story and you can play 30 minutes at once, the problem might be with your concentration, not the game.

I can actually feel the dopamine flowing as I'm playing. I can't think of any other games that do that for me anymore.