can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it)

...you guys are seriously talking about trying to balance drops around level (ilvl, i hope) 100? as if that would really change anything?

As for Melee-builds I guess with the next update a lot of that will be alleviated. GGG already stated they're working on a major rework there. But unless they change the fundamentals it's just a patchwork on patchwork on more patchwork right now, broken with every future implementation.

That's why I'm saying they need to use some sort of mechanic to stop those things from happening in the future. After 3-4 Leagues we'll be at the same point again otherwise, even if everything is 'balanced' before. Adding new content without regard for the old one is a surefire way to... well... as you said it won't be a way back then.

I just don't know which would piss off more players, re-working the system to adjust to the future content, or actually keeping the status-quo and leaving it in its broken state. One which more and more players realize, already a fair amount leaving.

That might not be visible - thanks to the influx of D3 players, Blizzard-Activision made a great present to GGG - with the numbers right away, but it's visible by player retention and the literal flood of negative posts about power-creep, broken mechanics at the beginning of the league and existing mechanics which disgruntle players.
Sure, many are sitting there and waiting for them to fix those issues simply, but by that time they'll have implemented more along the way rather likely, at least if they keep adding side-content in the same way as they're doing at the moment. You simply can't balance that in a sensible way without pushing end-content further up, making it even less obtainable for most players.

The alternative would be to actually implement this side-content to be relevant only after uber-elder, as a teaser for new content to come, but that on the other hand would disgruntle people as well who are looking forward to a new league, the majority of the new content being gated so far into the game that many won't even get a grasp on it during those 3 months.

That's the reason I'm saying they need to adapt the framework instead rather then glue pieces on the side in hopes not to topple it over in the process.

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robmafia wrote:

...you guys are seriously talking about trying to balance drops around level (ilvl, i hope) 100? as if that would really change anything?

He is not talking about ilvl.

Adding more level requirements would definitely make progression smoother imo.

But as I was saying, this is not a solution, it could be a good thing, but it would not address the whole problem.

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Kulze wrote:

As for Melee-builds I guess with the next update a lot of that will be alleviated

I would not expect too much out of the next updates, GGG completely cornered themselves regarding melee, survivability cannot be the only thing that melee have the edge off, it won't be enough to make it attractive unless it gets to some kind of stupid immortality level.

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Kulze wrote:

But unless they change the fundamentals it's just a patchwork on patchwork on more patchwork right now, broken with every future implementation.

It has been like that for a while now, and it's only getting worse.
I think that GGG has already crossed the point of no return, last year or the year before, things just keep acelerating and will keep accelerating from now on imho.

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Kulze wrote:

That's the reason I'm saying they need to adapt the framework instead rather then glue pieces on the side in hopes not to topple it over in the process.

Sure, but I still think that it does not have to be that way ... or that it did not need to be that way, GGG could have actually worried about power creep long ago, not to need to 'adapt the framework' now that it's pretty broken.

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Fruz wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

...you guys are seriously talking about trying to balance drops around level (ilvl, i hope) 100? as if that would really change anything?

He is not talking about ilvl.

Adding more level requirements would definitely make progression smoother imo.

But as I was saying, this is not a solution, it could be a good thing, but it would not address the whole problem.

...but clvl would be even less effective than ilvl.

Ilvl only reaches up to 83 at the moment, something a character reaches even before red-maps, meaning they can from then on wear all the broken mods they want, trivializing content.

With binding it to clvl directly it would give an incentive to people to actually get to lvl 100 - something not even remotely rewarding now - as well as forcing people to progress steadily, not allowing to roll overpowered mods for the areas they're playing in, even able to get upgrades a month into the league (for most at least).

Another one would be to not allow items with a higher ilvl then clvl to be worn, that would work as a patchwork solution as well until GGG finds a proper solution, but it's not as effective as my suggested and fairly drastic change.

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Kulze wrote:

Ilvl only reaches up to 83 at the moment,

seriously, do you EVER say anything that's correct?

Ah sorry, was talking to a friend yesterday and I messed up as it was more then late for me.

What I wanted to say was 'The common lvl of Zones only reaches to 83 now' Sure, shaper is 84, also in Synthesis you can get higher ones as well, but let's leave those rare cases out.

As for ilvl: 86 is the 'useful' limit. 83 for Abyss Jewels even. Sure, you can get some ilvl 100 bases, but those are absolutely useless.

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Kulze wrote:

Well, things like those triple top-tier implicits from Synthesis could be gated behind lvl 100, or the combination of 2 T1 'extra chaos damage' modifiers for instance, otherwise forcing the game to roll 1 T1 and 1 T2.

And sure, it would hurt some characters, though they could simply allow them to temporary keep wielding their equipment as-is, with a prompt that taking it off will adjust it to the respective level requirements. That would alleviate this issue immediately as well.

Anything can be done, and such a thing surely isn't the hardest of all changes they've made over the years. It just needs a bit of flexible thinking. Balancing a game to be able to scale further with the years is fairly hard, but it's not such an insurmountable task that GGG wouldn't be able to handle it with the implementation of proper system. Systems to make up for the shortcomings of the existing ones, allowing easier implementation of new content.

Even after lvl 100 it doesn't need to end, I'm sure we'll get to a time when we'll have enough core-content that maps with lvl 100 might become common. Allowing systems to enhance an item so it can roll new mods, only able to be worn by those players having played through the respective content already and explained by lore would work. This way even Level 100 items can become stronger and stronger with no need to raise the level cap or adjust the whole game before that, still allowing the player to have a proper feel for progression though, something which is... fairly important in an ARPG I would say. Especially so in an ARPG which is also a looter-game.

Gating some items behind character level in endgame is horrible decision, believe me, and i'm glad PoE doesnt follow it.
But i agree, adding more power to players should be accompanied with appropriate new challenges for them to beat. New crafting options from 3 recent leagues brought crafting to insanely powerful level, let's be honest. But i'd like to get challenges, approprite to that power...
Should i remind, that challenges in PoE are still gated by RNG and boring grind?
GGG apparently thinks, that in order to restrict players from too fast progressing through content, they should gate content behind RNG and boring grinds. They forgot, that the root of the problem - player have too much power, so they slice even though hardest content like hot knife through butter, if you allow free access to it.
In my opinion, hard endgame content should be gated behind its own difficulty. If you're wimp, you get obliterated there - so you have to improve your build, gear, micro, and then challenge it when you're ready. That's how it should be in proper game!

this is like the 3895th 1000k es chestpiece this league.

I remember when quality was maxed at 20%. And then the only way to get 30% was through a rare beastcrafting recipe that also corrupted the item - it was super useful for some items, especially unique weapons with a lot of flat physical damage from an affix.

Now not only can Hillock give you 30% quality with zero penalty, there are veiled mods that give you even more just to break all the rules.

There are no rules anymore and no meaningful tradeoffs or decisions. There is an obvious right and wrong choice every time we're presented with one, including which builds to even play.