can we please stop the power creep, already? (or better - reverse it)
" this, coming from the one that argued FOR power creep for 5+ pages... only to complain about power creep. this, coming from the one that asked me for details that i provided probably close to 100 times now. this, coming from the one that said "changes won't hurt the game" - in a thread about changes that hurt the game. [Removed by Support]
"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct." ...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz! |
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 well, called this one weeks ago... [Removed by Support]
"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct." ...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz! |
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" No it does not, not automatically, not necessarily. For example, the affix on a 5 sec cooldown that triggers a socketed spell when you use a skill ... it's arguably not power creep. It might be a bit too strong ( arguable, again, it might have been better with a -1 lvl to socketed gems or something, I'm not sure ), but it offers something new, it's not just adding power. And it's not the only things, there are a limited number of affixes, so as long as new affixes offer actually choices and are not no brainer, it's not necessarily power creep. Saying that the only thing that can be added through crafting is power creep is again short-sighted at best. Adding new implicit and allow triple implicits + enchantements ? Now that is plain stupid power-creep, it's mind-blowing, it's .... disgusting even ? " You mean .... would 'people' complain about power-creep if 99+% of those said 'people' would never see it ? What kind of question is this ? -___- " No it's not FFS. IF somebody adds a "deals quadruple damage with spell" mod to a wand, are you going to pretend that it's a scaling issue to ? It's NOT, the affix is too freaking strong, period. " If you cannot build a balance character, it is your problem, your issue, not the game's. Now UElder's dps check is something arguable, but that's not 'a lot of content'. Nobody is asking for a perfect state of balance by the way, but it seems that GGG is now fine with a completely unbalanced game, the 'balance' team should be renamed to something else, morel ike the 'hype' team or something of the same kind ... " You don't, you balance trade leagues, period. " And it's not over yet imho, we will see other aberrations .... *miss the times when stuff providing blatant power had downsides in PoE* ... SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" if only i had 1000 hours of poe experience. [Removed by Support]
"Your forum signature was removed as it was considered to be inappropriate and a breach of our Code of Conduct." ...it was quotes. from the forum. lolz! |
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" Yes, it doesn't seem like a clear type of power-creep, though it makes specific builds more viable as well as buffing some further then they could've been before. Having specific setups in it makes your character stronger beyond what was possible before. Not a very blatant one, and far better implemented but nonetheless a sort of power-creep. Shaper isn't non-doable for 99% of the community, it's a hard fight but you can literally do him with 200k dps with now issues, just takes a little while. Shaper is actually the one boss in PoE which suddenly forces you to have actual skill in managing the field, keeping orbs on the side, dodging his attacks well and not brainlessly attacking anytime. Just... the named affixes ruin it. So my suggestion for it is to gate those for the game after you've the ability to kill shaper already, or just having them unlocked in some way when it comes to that part, forcing people to be unable cheese the fight... or any fight along the line of progression. If you're getting ridiculously powerful after the fact that you've cleared the game it's no issue at all, nobody cares if you can one-shot everything in the game if you've needed to clear it beforehand without that ability after all. Sure it is, it's power-creep introduced in a bad way via the scaling mechanics inside the game. Adding damage is always fine, multiplying damage on the other hand is a fickle thing. Hence why such multipliers should be balanced in some way to either not be able to be used before a specific part of progression or are hindered by another mechanic making sure they won't get out of hand as easily. Well, every arena providing a permanent degen effect inside - like shaper orbs or elder and uber-elder 'blobs' on the ground - are in some way gates by DPS. The fight gets harder and harder the longer it progresses, so it's very challenging with a character which could kill them and survive for a long time but lack the DPS to force them down quick enough. The Cortex for instance does a similar thing, and I guess more of those will be implemented over time. Also the same goes for deep-delving where the majority of your success is based upon killing mobs before they can hit you a single time. And with the amount of them spawned at some nodes that's a clear DPS-barrier as well, defense won't do you any good there if you get 30k damage at max resists per hit from a white mob. Yes, those were nice, downsides to strong effects are something I love many uniques for, that sadly has been left behind quite a bit and should be taken up once again, would make the game a LOT more rewarding and fun to make differenct builds. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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Regarding that one mod I was talking about, it requires you to take one affix on your weapon ( so not a unique weapon there ), to adapt the setup, potentially giving up on some gems depending on what you want to do.
So it's very arguable whether it's power creep or not. " Try to do it with 50k dps, this will be a lot harder. 200k dps is already a correct amount, it's not amazing, but it isn't super bad either. If you are melee, the worst part of the fight might not even be the shaper, but the 2 void agents that you have to go through. It's less a dps check than UElder as you could do it perfectly with very low dps I guess, as long as you can handle the add phase. " No it's not "the one", Atziri was in the game way before Shaper was. " Do you realize that it's blatant power that allows people to cheeze this fight, by just skipping most of the mechanics with sheer, raw dps ? Do you know that some guy killed UElder with a level 34 char because he had ridiculous dps already with abyss jewels + toxic rain ( I think it was TR ) ? How do you gate anything behind shaper ? - you can't, the game is based around trading and its economy, and power comes from items mostly now ( ascendancies where a huge power boost already though, and recently added gems are ... well .... ). Power creep is everywhere, in all additions, let's see what all extensions brought : - Betrayal : easy 28% quality on gear + veiled mods - Delve : Delve fossils of course - Incursion : new mods on some rare items, double corruption ( this league is a bit less obvious I guess, double corruption comes with quite some drawback too ) + easy acquisition of quality vaal gems - Bestiary : aspects - Abyss : abyss jewels + uniques .... this one had blatant power creep - Harbinger : haven't played it much, but I guess there were some strong uniques etc ... Power creep is literally in every extension, and for some extensions it was very obvious, it's impossible to gate it behind a fight, and it would be a band-aid at best to try to do this, plus people would just pay for a carry. " Given how stupidly powerful abyss jewels can be ... not really, it's not "always fine" at all. But I agree that multiplying is more dangerous balance wise ... well, especially when the balance team does not seem to care about balance anymore ( or just do a terrible job at balancing anything ). " It can be manageable in the case of Shaper. It isn't manageable in the case of UElder if you don't have the dps to kill the anomalies quickly enough and keep them from pooping everywhere. About Delve, it's a scenario that 99.99% of the players will never experience. Tankyness matters for the rest, at depth 400 you need to be tanky, I bet at depth 600 it's the same ( you need some dps too of course, you need a balanced character ). 1500 ? Sure, maybe, have fun going that deep. " Then we do agree on this. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" Forgot about Atziri definitely, by the time I started to play she was fairly doable already, so it slipped my mind. As for the 'gating' part. It doesn't have to be behind shaper, it could be reworking one single base-concept of the game: Crafting items based on item level. Instead of doing that only the dropped mods on it could be rolled specific to the level of the area. If you craft personally it's just a hassle anyway, high ilvl items are so easy to obtain even early in league it's a joke, and the mods along the way are more then powerful enough to simply ignore some of the T1 mods anyway, they are not needed in the current state. Sure, nice, but definitely not mandatory. So one idea would be to lock crafting based on character level instead, reworking the mods which can roll respective to the content a character goes through at their level. So, either people farm until they are too high for the area - at which time they should be able to progress anyway - or make-do with the mods which they can roll on gear. This also stops the ability to skip content via trading. Sure, you can get better equipment for your level, but it won't be as blatantly overpowered then right now. Another upside of this system is to get lvl 100 be important again, not something you'll 'achieve on the side'. By the time you reach lvl 90 your character is powerful enough to kill uber-elder with a 'common' build anyway, everything above is pure luxury, a big reason why none of my characters is 100... I never cared for it, rather taking risky mod combinations and my character dieing from time to time while taking the exp-penalty as no issue, the rewarded loot in comparison makes up for it. So, imagine the strongest mods being gated behind lvl 100, a lot of strong mods gated behind lvl 95, and some more behind lvl 90 as well. This also goes for abyss jewels in that case then. It could also go for the actual amount of mods able to be rolled. As an example before lvl 50 you're forced to 1 mod on abyss jewels, then it rises steadily, with the strongest one unavailable for a long long time further ahead. This would put balance back into the game, force people to play content as supposed, allow for all those overpowered items to come into existance anyway and make a lot more drops viable to use. Base items themself would be valuable, not the map they dropped it, those only providing more exp... to wear well-crafted gear and progress. Also this way the level requirement of gear would make sense once again, without having lvl 70 equipment which is vastly more powerful compared to what a character should wear at this stage of the game. Also it would allow to actually roll 'leveling gear' along the way. Didn't turn out to be awesome as an end-game craft? Got the best mods for someone at lvl 55 though? Sure, sell that for some guy leveling up a secondary character! He'll need it most likely. Also this would mean rebalancing many uniques, a whole lot by now got only upsides and no downsides as you've mentioned, but they sometimes also can be used far too early in the game for the respective mods on them. Wanderlust at lvl 1, Tabula before lvl 50 and a lot more which provide a pure breakthrough in power, trivializing content massively. Yes, uniques are supposed to be powerful, but they definitely aren't supposed to literally 'push' people through all the content the game offers brainlessly. The boss-mechanics along the way are great, the lore is nice, and still, act 1 - 10 are seen as an annoyance by many rather then a core part of progression, one which should feel as good as mapping does, steadily progressing your character and rewarding you rather then 'Oh, let's put on tabula, goldrim and wanderlust and let's go till act 6. Ah, maybe I'll switch out my weapons along the way for base-damage provided. As for Delve: Yes, because Delve is gates in such an annoying way that progressing to that level is more then time extensive. You're always 'lagging' behind the progression in maps, making the mechanic itself feel unrewarding for a long time - besides fossils - until you finally either catch up because you're stuck at a tier, or you've reached T16 maps where it's just another place to drop some crap you'll only ever need to kill uber-elder by then, having done everything else for the core-progression after all. And yes, at 400 you need to be tanky... or just delete everything before it looks at you. At 600 you'll already be deleted by the cities, and at 1500 it's just walking through with an aura-bot anyway to ensure you're always killing even the hardest rares with a single shot. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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There still need to be ilevel for crafting to give an incentive to run high level content.
Do youy mean to add level requirements to all mods on top of it ? That could work I guess, I would definitely not gate anything with lvl 100, but lvl 90 and 95 .... I could see that happening. Unfortunately, this is a change that would hurt standard players most ... and even though GGG does not seem to care much anymore about it, I doubt they would want to piss players off to that extent, as some lvl 85~90 characters with really good items might just not be playable anymore after such a change. But I think that I would like that, GGG just won't do it. There are more likely to actually balance most of the crap they've introduced into the game that do such a change I think honestly ... Anyway, it would not solve the problem here : people at level 90 are also smashing the content too hard with certain setups. About Delve : even low level is really rewarding, the amount of currency and other things ( such as fossils ) that you can get there is really high, low level delve farming is definitely still a thing. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Apr 1, 2019, 10:25:41 PM
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Well, things like those triple top-tier implicits from Synthesis could be gated behind lvl 100, or the combination of 2 T1 'extra chaos damage' modifiers for instance, otherwise forcing the game to roll 1 T1 and 1 T2.
And sure, it would hurt some characters, though they could simply allow them to temporary keep wielding their equipment as-is, with a prompt that taking it off will adjust it to the respective level requirements. That would alleviate this issue immediately as well. Anything can be done, and such a thing surely isn't the hardest of all changes they've made over the years. It just needs a bit of flexible thinking. Balancing a game to be able to scale further with the years is fairly hard, but it's not such an insurmountable task that GGG wouldn't be able to handle it with the implementation of proper system. Systems to make up for the shortcomings of the existing ones, allowing easier implementation of new content. Even after lvl 100 it doesn't need to end, I'm sure we'll get to a time when we'll have enough core-content that maps with lvl 100 might become common. Allowing systems to enhance an item so it can roll new mods, only able to be worn by those players having played through the respective content already and explained by lore would work. This way even Level 100 items can become stronger and stronger with no need to raise the level cap or adjust the whole game before that, still allowing the player to have a proper feel for progression though, something which is... fairly important in an ARPG I would say. Especially so in an ARPG which is also a looter-game. GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease. Everything fixed but still broken. |
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" What can be done does not matter much as anything could theoritically be done. What can realistically be done is what matters. GGG have cornered themselves already, and unless they start actually balancing ( which will mean either nerfing many things, or buffing even more things, making numbers everywhere grossly escalate ... ) the game ( which I don't think they would because many players might be pissed off in the process ), there will be ne way back imo. You can add requirements, sure, but ... even double implicits + lab enchantement are blatant powercreep, and are very strong, so ... that just won't be enough to solve the current problem. I reckon it would be good for the game overall, but it would not solve the root of the problem, being that there has been too much power creep, way too much and that just fucked melee in the process ( even though it's playable alright, but it can't compete in most cases, for most things ). SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Apr 1, 2019, 10:42:40 PM
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