Can We Get Rid of Death XP Penalties Already? Games Are Supposed to be Fun

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HaraldMKutscher wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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HaraldMKutscher wrote:

Literally everybody could spend a year running white tier 7 maps (boss skipping of course!)

Skipping a white t7 boss ???
And you are wondering why you can't progress ???? seriously ?
I can reliably do all map boss up to guardians without dying ( not never, mistakes happen, some guardians with 2 damage mods are also pretty rippy, so I'd avoid that usually ), and my build is anything but meta or using crazy expensive gear.

If you are skipping t7 unmoded boss because of the risk to die to them, there is seriously something wrong with either your character or the way you play the game, and since the game isn't balanced around failed characters, you need to do something about it, not GGG.

Obviously I was sarcastic and exaggerated. The point remaains that you have to avoid content you likely could do - but not reliably deathless - for a looooong time to reach a level that enables you to play the whole game.

I was just telling you that you are wrong.
You can do those bosses reliably deathless ( you need to know what mods combinations are too rippy of course if there are any ) .... depending of your build of course, but since I'm not playing the meta or anything ( preparing a poet's pen cheewing setup for a thing or two though ... haven't used it yet ), I can safely assume that it's doable with pretty much any archetype / skill.

And reaching lvl 90 is not a big deal anymore anyway, and that is a level that allows you to play the game ...

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HaraldMKutscher wrote:

Obviously I was sarcastic and exaggerated. The point remaains that you have to avoid content you likely could do - but not reliably deathless - for a looooong time to reach a level that enables you to play the whole game.

?

I start 'avoiding content' well after I've reached lvl 90. Even if I die here and there before that, the exp loss is inconsequential, well within acceptable lines. And the skill points you get by 90 are more than enough to 'play the whole game'.

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Fruz wrote:

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vmt80 wrote:

It's a particular view of the game which is being forced to all the players.

It's not "a particular view of the game", it's the game that you chose to play in the first place, period.

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vmt80 wrote:

After all, the only serious argument I heard for the harsh DP came from a HC player, who pointed out removing it would require balancing the game even further towards SC, which would mean playing HC would actually become more difficult from their point of view.

This has been said many times by many players, and thought by many other because it's actually kind of obvious, by the way.

Wut?

You right there are forcing a particular view of the game upon others -which they do not agree with you -and then deny it, coming up with that BS where what you say should be 'obvious' to anyone. In case you didn't notice, HC players still don't have a priority to decide game balance either. That's their problem, which by the way, I don't give a rats ass. Neither do SC players owe anything to these guys just because people don't share their views on the meaning of death in game.

YOU chose to play a particular game if you chose HC. Only in certain players' mind set any of those arguments about ladder, HC balance or racing to 100 matters. I don't give a rats ass about those, because frankly, I don't. Now, giving up those reasons might make playing PoE meaningless to you, but it doesn't make it so to me.

So yeah, there is a genuine disagreement on the game and a deep disregard on the views of the other one, on both sides very likely. Period.

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Fruz wrote:

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vmt80 wrote:

The question is, are they, while minmaxing their characters, trying to compete with the best players?

Irrelevant, the penalty isn't just there regarding the ladder push at all ( of course it matters as the ladder push would become a freaking joke in SC if there would not be any penalty I guess ), it's the only incentive remaining for people to build characters than can survive in SC apart from a handful of encounters.

That is simply not true, sir. It may be the only reason to YOU but once again, the core reason to many people for playing arpgs is making their character better. Given how widely our views here differ, I honestly don't think any agreement via discussion is foreseeable. In fact, what you are describing up there is exactly what makes HC oriented player sneer at SC modes in general, since to him it seems as if 'there are little incentives' to play SC in the first place. Well, you are entitled to have your opinion. Just don't treat them as general facts, which they are not.

I love it how you describe any view 'irrelevant' which does not fall in line with yours.

Edit: to clarify my general position, I do see some merit in death penalty. To me it is set to stupid level in PoE, considering a casual gamer is set back days' of progress upon death on levels 95+. Prior to those levels it is not problematic, allowing people to actually play SC casually. That is why I have numerous times referred to levels 95+ being a force-fed pseudo HC, since one death takes about as much progress playtime wise as leveling a new character from 1 to 90. If people want to play HC they should go play HC mode instead of force spooning it unto everyone else.

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vmt80 wrote:

YOU chose to play a particular game if you chose HC

It has nothing to do with HC, absolutely nothing.

The way the game works ( including the death penalty ), is not a view of the game, if anything, it's the view of the devs, and it is the game, period.

It's like playing starcraft, suggest that they remove ... let's say workers because you find resources gathering and management boring, and that having workers in the game is just 'people' imposing you their view of the game.
No, it's not a view of the game, it's just the game lol, that's how it works, for a number of reasons, and it's part of what makes the game what it is.


The second part of your post is also completely off, as it has - again - nothing to do with HC, nothing.
And the xp penalty on death is of course not just about the ladder push, as obvious as it is.
For reasons that have been explained times and times.
But I guess since all you have to say being "That is simply not true" ( and the rest isn't anything really, just some things ... completely off the mark ).

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Fruz wrote:

The way the game works ( including the death penalty ), is not a view of the game, if anything, it's the view of the devs, and it is the game, period.

Did you never criticized any decision the dev's made in this game? Would you mind, if I remember you to this, if you criticize anything on PoE, because this is the game.Yes, XP penalties are part of the game based on its dev's decision. But what makes your so sure that devs will never change their mind on this. In the past, GGG has shown that they are not afraid to even change core design decisions. There may be changes on XP penalities in fututre or they may not. It is not your decision but that of the devs. So please stick with real arguments.

I really like this game but the way how XP penalties put pressure on players decisions is pretty harsh. It not the XP penalty alone.
I would even play HC, if this game would be able to clearly telegraph every deadly ability and run stable enough to not created deadly lags or crashes at least once a month. I could live even with the pooly telegraphed deadly abilities, but the latter is hard to accept.
There is no other current game, where I have these issues odd technical issues (and I don't have many issues at all in comparison to what I know from other players). Let's face the fact that PoE is not very resilient to these effects.

I understand the sophisticated aproach of GGG creating a challenging game with tough penalities for player failure, this is why I am here, but this goal is underminded by hillarious circumstances of death.

There is a reason why Alt+F4 still works to rescue your character, because you need this last chance if unavoidable certain death awaits you. It is ridiculous, if you ask me. Never ever a game calling itself challenging should have such a cheesy feature. There is no justification for any death penalty as long as it is easier to prevent certain death using an log-out script rather than playing with skill, caution and brain. Simple as it is, one of the most successful tactics avoiding certain death is quiting the game as fast as possible. Can you see the irony?
This is why I reached apathy with regard to dying in this game.

I dont know how many times "our" side has to fight against the same strawman, so I will keep it short and because I think this fruz guy seems much more reasonable than robmafia, who is just nonstop trolling while providing nothing more than hot air without any content.

@fruz: you keep attacking a strawman in my opinion. did everybody here state that they want to entirely get rid of the xp penalty? Sure, some people share that view, but I have stated repeatedly, that I dont. I think a death penalty makes sense. however, I dont agree with the harshness of it. there is no point in throwing players back multiple hours or even days for small mistakes.

why not turn back the 10% xp penalty to 5% or 2%? that way it will still fulfill its purpose (preventing glass canoning and zerging your way through content where you dont belong) while not being so irrationally punishing to less hardcore nerds.

can you bring forward a REAL argument why the xp loss needs to be so punishing? and try to be honest and argue from the perspective of us gamers for a moment instead of white knighting ggg and their needs. I dont care what stupid tricks ggg likes to abuse to keep everyone chasing the carrot stick. I rather express my opinion and openly tell them that I dont agree with their methods.

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grogzor wrote:

I dont know how many times "our" side has to fight against the same strawman, so I will keep it short and because I think this fruz guy seems much more reasonable than robmafia, who is just nonstop trolling while providing nothing more than hot air without any content.

*facepalm*

i provided ~ 10 pages worth of content in the previous thread about this.

it's nice that you mentioned strawman while making that same fallacy... and ad-hom, too. a+ logic.

additionally, i still provided plenty of facts in this thread, too. the thing about the xp penalty complainers - they don't like facts. and they generally ignore them in favor of strawman, other fallacies, and baseless accusations.

like the above quote.

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grogzor wrote:

why not turn back the 10% xp penalty to 5% or 2%?

From what I can gather there really isn't a reason. Unless making things unfun and overly punishing players for things that might not even be their faults are valid reasons. It's a compromise, and those are supposedly good. I really feel it's a rhetorical question.

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robmafia wrote:

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grogzor wrote:

I dont know how many times "our" side has to fight against the same strawman, so I will keep it short and because I think this fruz guy seems much more reasonable than robmafia, who is just nonstop trolling while providing nothing more than hot air without any content.

*facepalm*

i provided ~ 10 pages worth of content in the previous thread about this.

it's nice that you mentioned strawman while making that same fallacy... and ad-hom, too. a+ logic.

dont asnwer me plz, I am ignoring you from now on. I suggest you ignore me too, then we can both be happy. never cu again.

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grogzor wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

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grogzor wrote:

I dont know how many times "our" side has to fight against the same strawman, so I will keep it short and because I think this fruz guy seems much more reasonable than robmafia, who is just nonstop trolling while providing nothing more than hot air without any content.

*facepalm*

i provided ~ 10 pages worth of content in the previous thread about this.

it's nice that you mentioned strawman while making that same fallacy... and ad-hom, too. a+ logic.

dont asnwer me plz, I am ignoring you from now on. I suggest you ignore me too, then we can both be happy. never cu again.

1. lolz. nothing says "ignoring" like quoting and replying!
2. you just proved MY point. you got called out and doubled-down doing the same thing that you just accused me of - that i didn't even do, to begin with. it's not even pot-kettle, it's just hypocrisy.