[3.5] Hopeshredder Scourge Arrow | Fast beefy Mapper | Deathless Uber Elder (5M+ Shaper DPS)

Do you think the build is still viable without the 3 Might of the Meek ? Cant afford them yet :'(
Already played with a lot of builds this league (at least 5) and never felt so good in delves, scourge arrow just destroy every room in one shot, the only problem is the door where the arrow usually just hit the wall and nothing happens.

What about a mf version of this build? Maybe with windripper or just keep the hoppeshradder.
"
SkillshotsOP wrote:

Spoiler
Alright there's a lot here so while I'd like to start from the top, I want to make sure everyone is aware I didn't copy your build or anyone elses. The main reason I love and play Path of Exile is because of how much I like making my own builds from the ground up, and while our builds are definitely similar,(I even slot in RoA sometimes if I feel like it) I'm assuring you it's complete coincidence. If it wasn't your intention to call me out on this and I took it the wrong way I'm sorry.

With that out of the way, thanks for the analysis and insight, I forgot about accuracy when I did my quiver shopping which is why I couldn't get one that closely compared to a Hyrri's that had my corrupt implicit and I'll definitely be taking a second look at that.

The thing I'm going to butt heads with you on however, is the Shock. I fully understand how Shock works and that it's unrealistic to ever get a maximum Shock on an endgame boss(this is actually my first build ever that utilizes Shock due to the fact that I mainly play attack-based builds and consider Shock extremely unreliable on them) but there are definitely skills than can make it worth it; namely skills that can deal a huge amount of damage within a single hit like Flameblast. I will admit I don't achieve 50% shock against many endgame bosses, but there's a little bit more to it than that. Firstly, the first shot in Scourge Arrow is a high-damage one hit skill, currently averaging out to 536k shaper damage in PoB BEFORE applying any sort of Shock. Assuming a boss like Shaper with 20 million hp, 536k damage is roughly 2.5% of his life, that alone will apply a Shock with a 12.5% more multiplier, and keep in mind this is just the average. A crit, especially one that rolls higher base damages will be much higher, then upon applying the initial Shock the effect can snowball from there, potentially applying higher and higher Shocks. Again, despite all of this 50% is for sure unrealistic, but at the very minimum a 20-25% more multiplier(achievable by dealing 4-5% of targets max hp in a single hit) is very much achievable with Scourge Arrow even against endgame bosses.

Also I have been looking into Unnatural Instinct quite a bit and can definitely see the value it has in the top-left of the Scion wheel, but considering the price tag, I'm going to play with it in PoB a little more before deciding whether I really want it or not.

Lastly when adding it all up for the "5m+ shaper DPS" in my title, I did checkmark Shaper/Guardian in PoB, I unchecked it before I imported the build into pastebin to see normal values and I will fix that.

Once again, thanks for your advice, I'll definitely take everything you said into more consideration.

Yo mate, ty for the Reply :)

I was not implying you "stole" my Build, no one can really do that these days. No one can read every Build Guide out there and see if it's already been done for a while :P
And who knows if someone that's not been indexed by Poe Ninja has been playing a similar Build already.
That said, I'm obviously not thrilled about a second Guide, that has exactly the same base ideas as my own, appearing. Even more so since people can just swap the Gems. But I hope you can kinda understand that.

As for the Shock:
True, everyone with Shock Chance shocks a bit.
A few things tho:
Shock is not a straight more Multiplier. A X% shock only results in X% more Damage if you have no other Sources of increased Damage taken on the Enemy. Sources of "inc Damage Taken" stack additively, not multiplicative.
Since we already intimidate for 10% inc Damage taken, and you have Yoke for 15%:
"
Shock more Damage = (1 + 0.1 + 0.15 + 0.X) / (1 + 0.1 + 0.15)

Where X = the applied Shock. So a 12.5% Shock from your Example results in:
"
1.375 / 1.25 = 1.1

10% More Damage.

And another Thing for Crits etc: PoB is a tool meant to get a realistic average expaction of your DPS (and other things obviously). It doesn't make sense to Build your expactations or DPS Numbers around Fringe Cases.

Also, snowballing Shocks doesn't happen in Reality for this very often, as Shock Duration is 2 Seconds by Default, and only 1.4 Seconds for you due to Yoke. Between Charging SA and most impotantly: dodging Attacks, you're not able to keep this up.

Yes, you apply a 12.5% Shock on average to Shaper with your Chargeup. But you won't go far beyond that and it is very doubtful for how long you can keep that up while Dodging and Charging.
I really recommend trying out some Rare Amulet :) If only for the Life.

Sad to see that the Title of the Thread still isn't fixed like you said you would btw :D
Just joking, everybody can put any Numbers they want in there.

And Unnatural Instincts is definitely a DPS and Life increase, but I get not wanting to include such an expensive Item. Maybe point it out somewhere as an option for the rich kids.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude or anything. I mostly just wanted to point some things out that I saw as wrong.
Hope you have a nice day :)
Ascendant Molten Strike + Frostblades:
/view-thread/2144900

Ascendant Hopeshredder RoA:
/view-thread/2195299
Last edited by Guffinn on Oct 1, 2018, 6:32:13 PM
"
AiluroPànda wrote:
Do you think the build is still viable without the 3 Might of the Meek ? Cant afford them yet :'(

Yes it is viable without the Meeks, just that you will be very noticeably weaker than with them.
"
gokudin wrote:
Already played with a lot of builds this league (at least 5) and never felt so good in delves, scourge arrow just destroy every room in one shot, the only problem is the door where the arrow usually just hit the wall and nothing happens.

What about a mf version of this build? Maybe with windripper or just keep the hoppeshradder.

You could do an MF version of this build if you'd like but I've personally never tried it so I can't vouch for its effectiveness.
Spoiler
"
Guffinn wrote:
"
SkillshotsOP wrote:

Spoiler
Alright there's a lot here so while I'd like to start from the top, I want to make sure everyone is aware I didn't copy your build or anyone elses. The main reason I love and play Path of Exile is because of how much I like making my own builds from the ground up, and while our builds are definitely similar,(I even slot in RoA sometimes if I feel like it) I'm assuring you it's complete coincidence. If it wasn't your intention to call me out on this and I took it the wrong way I'm sorry.

With that out of the way, thanks for the analysis and insight, I forgot about accuracy when I did my quiver shopping which is why I couldn't get one that closely compared to a Hyrri's that had my corrupt implicit and I'll definitely be taking a second look at that.

The thing I'm going to butt heads with you on however, is the Shock. I fully understand how Shock works and that it's unrealistic to ever get a maximum Shock on an endgame boss(this is actually my first build ever that utilizes Shock due to the fact that I mainly play attack-based builds and consider Shock extremely unreliable on them) but there are definitely skills than can make it worth it; namely skills that can deal a huge amount of damage within a single hit like Flameblast. I will admit I don't achieve 50% shock against many endgame bosses, but there's a little bit more to it than that. Firstly, the first shot in Scourge Arrow is a high-damage one hit skill, currently averaging out to 536k shaper damage in PoB BEFORE applying any sort of Shock. Assuming a boss like Shaper with 20 million hp, 536k damage is roughly 2.5% of his life, that alone will apply a Shock with a 12.5% more multiplier, and keep in mind this is just the average. A crit, especially one that rolls higher base damages will be much higher, then upon applying the initial Shock the effect can snowball from there, potentially applying higher and higher Shocks. Again, despite all of this 50% is for sure unrealistic, but at the very minimum a 20-25% more multiplier(achievable by dealing 4-5% of targets max hp in a single hit) is very much achievable with Scourge Arrow even against endgame bosses.

Also I have been looking into Unnatural Instinct quite a bit and can definitely see the value it has in the top-left of the Scion wheel, but considering the price tag, I'm going to play with it in PoB a little more before deciding whether I really want it or not.

Lastly when adding it all up for the "5m+ shaper DPS" in my title, I did checkmark Shaper/Guardian in PoB, I unchecked it before I imported the build into pastebin to see normal values and I will fix that.

Once again, thanks for your advice, I'll definitely take everything you said into more consideration.

Yo mate, ty for the Reply :)

I was not implying you "stole" my Build, no one can really do that these days. No one can read every Build Guide out there and see if it's already been done for a while :P
And who knows if someone that's not been indexed by Poe Ninja has been playing a similar Build already.
That said, I'm obviously not thrilled about a second Guide, that has exactly the same base ideas as my own, appearing. Even more so since people can just swap the Gems. But I hope you can kinda understand that.

As for the Shock:
True, everyone with Shock Chance shocks a bit.
A few things tho:
Shock is not a straight more Multiplier. A X% shock only results in X% more Damage if you have no other Sources of increased Damage taken on the Enemy. Sources of "inc Damage Taken" stack additively, not multiplicative.
Since we already intimidate for 10% inc Damage taken, and you have Yoke for 15%:
"
Shock more Damage = (1 + 0.1 + 0.15 + 0.X) / (1 + 0.1 + 0.15)

Where X = the applied Shock. So a 12.5% Shock from your Example results in:
"
1.375 / 1.25 = 1.1

10% More Damage.

And another Thing for Crits etc: PoB is a tool meant to get a realistic average expaction of your DPS (and other things obviously). It doesn't make sense to Build your expactations or DPS Numbers around Fringe Cases.

Also, snowballing Shocks doesn't happen in Reality for this very often, as Shock Duration is 2 Seconds by Default, and only 1.4 Seconds for you due to Yoke. Between Charging SA and most impotantly: dodging Attacks, you're not able to keep this up.

Yes, you apply a 12.5% Shock on average to Shaper with your Chargeup. But you won't go far beyond that and it is very doubtful for how long you can keep that up while Dodging and Charging.
I really recommend trying out some Rare Amulet :) If only for the Life.

Sad to see that the Title of the Thread still isn't fixed like you said you would btw :D
Just joking, everybody can put any Numbers they want in there.

And Unnatural Instincts is definitely a DPS and Life increase, but I get not wanting to include such an expensive Item. Maybe point it out somewhere as an option for the rich kids.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude or anything. I mostly just wanted to point some things out that I saw as wrong.
Hope you have a nice day :)

I do understand where you're coming from, and I'm sorry about our build similarities even if unintentional.

At this point though I don't want to derail this thread into a back-and-forth argument about Yoke and Shock but I feel I would have been a failure as a guide-writer if I can't back up my own gear choices. I'll start off by saying that if anyone playing this build feels as though Yoke of Suffering is not strong enough, by all means feel free to change it out for a rare amulet, they are obviously also very strong and it's undeniable that the life you get on them is something Yoke will never be able to get. On top of this you have great defensive options such as increased life leech rate cap from Elder Amulets if you want a more tanky alternative.

I will add that fully buffed in PoB, we have almost 8 "attacks" per second which means we can fully charge Scourge Arrow (since it has 5 stages) in 0.625 seconds, and because we're not superhuman and can't perfectly time our releases, I'm going to raise this up to 0.8-0.9 seconds. Meaning if we start charging immediately again immediately after releasing, we have roughly 0.5-0.6 seconds to to reapply the Shock before it expires, and against many bosses like Shaper who has his beam, we get a LOT of time to free DPS and continue the Shock chain. However if you feel you are dodging a lot or just slow to the trigger, it's true that chaining and snowballing the Shocks can be difficult. That's about all the insight I can give on this. From my personal experience my damage ramps up quite heavily as the fight progresses (this is even evident in my Shaper DPS gif but this is a small sample size.)and I didn't just slap on a Yoke without any prior testing with other options and go "yup this is the best alright."

Lastly even if a joke, the reason I did not change my title is because even if I go by your exact calculations, I still reach 5.3 million DPS when you calculate in in everything (my DPS would be significantly higher if I included absolutely everything including a max shock, but I didn't simply due the the fact that I was always aware from the start of this guide that a max shock is unrealistic against bosses), I've reconfigured my Yoke to have 8% increased damage taken per ailment as stated in your first post, and I've added in 10% more damage to account for Shock and unticked Shock, again, by your calculations, and here's the math:
- Thorn arrows DPS before adding in extra pod enchant: 2,456,674
- Release at 5 stages DPS: 982,833
- Adding in the additional pod (491,416, 50% of release damage) our thorn arrows DPS is now 2,948,090
- Added together (2,948,090 + 982,833) this comes out to be 3,930,923
- Now we calculate for Mirage Archer (60% less attack speed, 11% less damage), 3,930,923 x 0.4(attack speed) = 1,572,369, then now 1,572,369 x 0.89(less damage) = 1,399,408
- Final Calculation: 3,930,923 + 1,399,408 = 5,330,331 total DPS

And of course here is the PoB link incase anyone wants to double check for themselves: https://pastebin.com/r3qa3JZG

I feel like a broken record saying this but, again I don't want this to come off as rude. I respect you and your input for this build, especially so since you have a build guide that's very similar, but I simply believe that if I were not able to defend an amulet I explicitly called BiS in my guide or back up my own DPS calculations, I would see myself as a failure at my own guide which is why I'm writing all of this.

"
SkillshotsOP wrote:
Spoiler
I do understand where you're coming from, and I'm sorry about our build similarities even if unintentional.

At this point though I don't want to derail this thread into a back-and-forth argument about Yoke and Shock but I feel I would have been a failure as a guide-writer if I can't back up my own gear choices. I'll start off by saying that if anyone playing this build feels as though Yoke of Suffering is not strong enough, by all means feel free to change it out for a rare amulet, they are obviously also very strong and it's undeniable that the life you get on them is something Yoke will never be able to get. On top of this you have great defensive options such as increased life leech rate cap from Elder Amulets if you want a more tanky alternative.

I will add that fully buffed in PoB, we have almost 8 "attacks" per second which means we can fully charge Scourge Arrow (since it has 5 stages) in 0.625 seconds, and because we're not superhuman and can't perfectly time our releases, I'm going to raise this up to 0.8-0.9 seconds. Meaning if we start charging immediately again immediately after releasing, we have roughly 0.5-0.6 seconds to to reapply the Shock before it expires, and against many bosses like Shaper who has his beam, we get a LOT of time to free DPS and continue the Shock chain. However if you feel you are dodging a lot or just slow to the trigger, it's true that chaining and snowballing the Shocks can be difficult. That's about all the insight I can give on this. From my personal experience my damage ramps up quite heavily as the fight progresses (this is even evident in my Shaper DPS gif but this is a small sample size.)and I didn't just slap on a Yoke without any prior testing with other options and go "yup this is the best alright."

Lastly even if a joke, the reason I did not change my title is because even if I go by your exact calculations, I still reach 5.3 million DPS when you calculate in in everything (my DPS would be significantly higher if I included absolutely everything including a max shock, but I didn't simply due the the fact that I was always aware from the start of this guide that a max shock is unrealistic against bosses), I've reconfigured my Yoke to have 8% increased damage taken per ailment as stated in your first post, and I've added in 10% more damage to account for Shock and unticked Shock, again, by your calculations, and here's the math:
- Thorn arrows DPS before adding in extra pod enchant: 2,456,674
- Release at 5 stages DPS: 982,833
- Adding in the additional pod (491,416, 50% of release damage) our thorn arrows DPS is now 2,948,090
- Added together (2,948,090 + 982,833) this comes out to be 3,930,923
- Now we calculate for Mirage Archer (60% less attack speed, 11% less damage), 3,930,923 x 0.4(attack speed) = 1,572,369, then now 1,572,369 x 0.89(less damage) = 1,399,408
- Final Calculation: 3,930,923 + 1,399,408 = 5,330,331 total DPS

And of course here is the PoB link incase anyone wants to double check for themselves: https://pastebin.com/r3qa3JZG

I feel like a broken record saying this but, again I don't want this to come off as rude. I respect you and your input for this build, especially so since you have a build guide that's very similar, but I simply believe that if I were not able to defend an amulet I explicitly called BiS in my guide or back up my own DPS calculations, I would see myself as a failure at my own guide which is why I'm writing all of this.


Don't worry about the title, that's just me disliking DPS Numbers in Build Guide Titles in general. Thought you meant you wanted to remove it, but I misread.

But one last thing to consider about Shock :D
You have ~69% Crit Chance with a Diamond up, and ~51 without.
So your Crit isn't terribly reliable, which means that every 3rd shot, depending on luck obviously, might not Shock if it fails the base 6% chance Roll of your Yoke.
This, added to the very tight timing of half a second (minus Proj Travel Time) we discussed, makes keeping up Shock virtually impossible reliably. Especially on tough Endgame Bosses like Uber Elder (I don't count Shaper), where more Dodging is required.
If you decide to stay with Yoke, I recommend considering pathing the lower arm of the Primeval Force Cluster for 10% Shock Chance, at the loss of 4% WED.

Saying the Enemy is always Shocked, snowballing Shocks, etc. is just extremely unrealistic to happen.

Btw, I don't want to downplay the Damage of Scourge Arrow or anything: that Skill is busted. I just wanna bring my (now last) Points about Yoke.

In the end it's your character tho, so do what you want.
Ascendant Molten Strike + Frostblades:
/view-thread/2144900

Ascendant Hopeshredder RoA:
/view-thread/2195299
Last edited by Guffinn on Oct 1, 2018, 11:55:15 PM
"
dejuvenate wrote:
I am leveling still and cant decide on whether going tempest scaling lightning (mathil) or hopeshredder cold (yours)..

Still leveling but with tempest it has been faceroll so far. The top poe.ninja shows most people going hopeshredder. I


It's almost the same afaik. The only difference really is the element, lightning or cold. Choose what element you like then follow that. The item costs I believe is roughly the same. I started with Mathil build until I found that there's a cold version so I reroll to that because I like shattering effect more.
@SkillshotsOP what do you think it's the minimum gear to have, in order to kill uber elder with some struggle? like are 3 might of the meek essential to kill him? do I need to have uber lab enchant? etc.
Last edited by GLADIATORGR on Oct 2, 2018, 9:49:42 AM
"
GLADIATORGR wrote:
@SkillshotsOP what do you think it's the minimum gear to have, in order to kill uber elder with some struggle? like are 3 might of the meek essential to kill him? do I need to have uber lab enchant? etc.

That really depends on how good you are at the Uber Elder fight, but I'd say in general, at least 2 meeks, the 6l and the Kaom's would be a good baseline for Uber Elder. The lab enchant is nowhere near essential, it's just a nice DPS boost.

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