Chop Finale .... ROLL DAY~

chris, we all know you are talking about WoW :p

Well then, will you introduce extra slots or something? It seems kind of odd if new content doesn't allow your character to get better.

i very well expected the results i got. i was somewhat disappointed with the low amount of spell power mods i got more than anything, but im sure thats just how the odds fell. i dont think the rest of the player base expects those odds tho.

something is off badly in terms of item worth vs orb worth in the beta at least. im guessing it has a lot to do with low player base and high amounts of items, but at the same time mediocre gear quickly becomes worthless. i guess more players in general would be more mouths for the no lifers to feed, and would even it out a bit.

ive said many of times that the beta community values items way way way to low in terms of orbs. its always been the case. i foresee that changing drastically in open/release to more of an item barter system, or item +orbs, or masses more orbs than are traded now.

1 problem i see comming for orbs is if use is low then value will be low. how do you expect to buy a godly weapon with orbs that have very low useful value? you will buy mirrors instead. or you will stockpile solid items.

from what i can tell, just taking a stab at it here ... roll odds are super high for end game. drop rates are semi low for same economic concerns, but then you have orbs which create items and serve as currency at the same time. this is where the hard part comes in. you have a currency with a use thats value directly relates to its ability to produce the very items they are meant to also buy lol. low % to create + decent time to attain = low value to trade.

what im trying to say is, it seems like it will end up costing 5,000 chaos orbs or 200 exalted to buy 1 mirror or godly weapon / item.

i guess thats ok and all, but where the hell you gonna put or how do you trade 5k chaos orbs lol.

if you farm orbs and roll them all its like getting paid for work in scratch off tickets. the hardcore gamers arent going to roll, they are going to mass because the odds arent there. if ratio's are off that bad they just wont play. im just being straight up brutally honest here.

it didnt take me long to figure that part out and it wont many other good players either. its fun to roll, i roll alch cause they are like dimes and nickles to me, but never anything higher because it never made sense.

gotta figure something out in that department, maybe the up coming changes will help =)


chris:

i agree and understand with everything you said to certain extents. differences being vs orb values. i didnt expect godly, just a chance, which is what i had. exalteds are very strong in a very high risk high reward way.

your edit1:

good haul, is dependant on the understanding of the game economy in current state which is all i can comment on. pretty much all of the blue ed wands are no better than a blue cruel. the archmage wands are 100% reliant on exalted hitting pure spell damage mod which didnt, and the high % wands have to hit crit/fcr to be desired. otherwise they are mediocre rubbish which they are lol.

1500 chaos / 25 = 60 exalted in current trade ratios, +the 12 i used is 72 exalted.

being optimistic ill say i could trade all the wands i kept for 15 exalted ( which only very few would sell maybe the 160 phys and the 80/crit) but im being optimistic. that leaves me a net loss of 60 exalted.

60 exalted would buy a good majority of the whole poe beta economy lol.

item prices directly effect it, and is also based of amount of time the majority of people play. majority of people never getting more than 3-4 exalted due to lack of playtime from high responsibility in real life. therefore exalted same as gcp and chaos have an inflated worth vs items. which makes it pointless to roll vs buy.

i could have bought all those wands for under 10 exalted and kept 62 to hoard for mirrors / 6l's / etc.

which makes more sense?

it also makes the opinion of a good haul moot when you compare it vs economic values of items and orbs. this is a problem.

edit2:

i know hybrid weapons have higher odds which is another sneaky reason i rolled wands. makes it pretty unfair to witches doesnt it? :P

and funny you mention ed having higher odds when i rolled multiple times more cruel than incanters on a caster weapon. i was after spell damage not ed :P is the same odds both ways and i know what you meant.

see, this is why i stayed in game, once i get started typing i have a hard time stopping... lol ... /end

~Chop

well, at least that's an impressive feedback from a serious dedicated player ^^

Impressive testing, thanks for sharing the results with us, because now we can yet again confirm simple fact: orbs are useless.
The whole orb system is flawed to the core and should be completely reworked or thrown out of the window and replaced with real crafting system.

This thread proves only that:

Crafting in PoE is flawed and not rewarding. Period.
Chopatron cummulate EXTREMELY WEALTH IN ORBS and in no time this wealth changes to items that arent worth even 0.01% of orbs value that was used in creation process.

THIS IS BULLSHIT and if devs thinks this is good way that 'CRAFTING' should work then i may only say LOL LOL. 90% of MMORPGs with crafting systems have this problem - materials are far more expensive and valuable that effects of crafter work.

So Chris... despite your confidence and your internal simulations i must say that crafting system in PoE is piece fo trash and this thread proves this.
Considering how many orbs chopatron accumulate and what results he gets i may safely assume that "normal" player will get only BIG GTFO (statistically) from crafting system.

Sadly Orbs dont work at all and even more sadly they even dont work that well as a currency (because there is no unified, easy to get but VALUABLE FOR EVERYONE low currency item that will give values to other currencies - YES in other games this is gold in 99% cases.)

Atm i see only two things that may result in PoE failure after launch: generic monsters (but his will hopefully change) and boring, punishing crafting system linked to very hard grind to get materials.


My 2 cents.

As far as all the crafting goes maybe it's too harsh, or maybe it's fine. I do, however think that when it is presented as a ton of rolls all together there is some sort of negative psychological reaction of being cheated that it brings out. I generally don't keep more than 2 stacks of any particular currency, then I use it up in a moment and usually don't get something good, but I don't feel cheated or upset. So I do wonder how many people when the game is released will do it more like me, and how many people will amass huge fortunes.(and what reactions they will have based on these approaches.) I look at it like, "hey, in diablo 2 you could never add to or reroll an item, you just had to refind the base item type you wanted and then hope it was magic/rare/unique/(whatever you wanted) and then hope it had the perfect affixes and stats. To me, if anything it seems exorbitantly generous to be able to simply find the base item type I want and then reroll it as much as I want in a number of ways to get it just right. So that's the reaction that comes to me naturally, but of course other people have different, displeased reactions...So it's hard to say what most people will think about it in the end.

On the subject of continually adding new content, I think that increasing level caps is a very artificial way of adding content.(enemies also have their level cap increased, so, max level just becomes rebalanced to a new arbitrary number...just extra grind in the end) I have assumed that they will add things like new areas, new monsters, new uniques, new base items, new affixes, new skills, but keep the level cap at 100. You get all the same good additions of an MMO without the unnecessary grind. Raising the level cap also makes the grind for new characters that much longer multiplied by number of alts, and number of expansions.

raxlea:

in d2 orbs were runes, which were useful alone ,rare, and also useful in rune words which = value and demand.

ist gave mf 100% of the time
um gave resist 100% of the time
ber gave dr 100% of the time

etc etc.

find a jah? make enigma ... 100% godly item reguardless of roll.

find a zod make botd .... even shitty ed roll was godly item 100% of the time (until super late in games life)

d2 is good example to compare too. it proves all my points. usefulness + rarity = value.

orbs are low rarity low usability = low value.

thats the main point i was making in before posts.

p.s. i didnt quit b/c i rolled, i rolled b/c i was quitting lol, any other time wouldnt make sense ... which further proves points.

Thanks Chopatron for giving us some real values to work with.

Have to say these odds strike me as pretty awful. I have played the game for about 5 months and found a total of 2 or 3 exalted, i.e. about 50-70 chaos orbs. I've found a couple stacks of chaos orbs as well, totalling maybe 100 chaos.

With the odds presented by the OP, I am still unlikely to craft one decent (not great - decent) item. Remember, that represents almost half a year worth of play. I am glad that I didn't spend all my wealth on crafting because those odds are just way too low for me.

My point is, given the odds here, I see no reason to ever spend orbs on crafting because trading is much more profitable. When everyone starts to realize this, demand for orbs will drop and they will devaluate more and more until only exalted and gcp are worth anything, because they are the only orbs with guaranteed success. That is exactly what is happening on the beta realm right now.

"

ptt_frmr wrote:

My point is, given the odds here, I see no reason to ever spend orbs on crafting because trading is much more profitable. When everyone starts to realize this, demand for orbs will drop and they will devaluate more and more until only exalted and gcp are worth anything, because they are the only orbs with guaranteed success. That is exactly what is happening on the beta realm right now.

that is 100% exactly my same concern for the future of poe. i'll take the hit for the team if it helps better the game =)

what you just expressed in your post is the exact feelings that majority will have. i feel that this problem can be worked around with constructive feed back and criticism. just have to keep it from going into a flame fest.

chris and the other devs are good guys, and they want to succeed. they are very open and very involved with the community. by far best beta ive been in.

Yeah, I don't quite know how they should change this system however. If lets say they added a mod which predictably removed a mod ( lets say the latest in the list ), then together with exalted it would be possible to craft super powerful items ( although it would take a ton of effort ). If the rolls done by chaos / alch were better than a standard rare, then rares on drop totally loose their value. If items accumulate better & better chances when you spend chaos on them, then you'll continue dumping all your chaos into a single item until it's maxed out ( or close to ). So basically, any system which guarantees progress will lead to super items that removes the need for rares on drop, and if they keep the system as it is then the worth of 1 chaos orb is worth slightly more than a random unid rare ( close to 0, as you get 20+ rares per chaos ledge ).

Personally I prefer these of type games to "end", rather I can spend a set amount of effort to craft an epic character with a good sense of character progression instead of grinding along for years, getting a slight upgrade every blue moon. But that's just my personal opinion, and in this day and age where everybody is doing these damn f2p games it doesn't make any sense from GGGs POV.