Chop Finale .... ROLL DAY~

Would you rather...


use a mirror on that wand now

-or-

save it in hopes that you hit something awesome with more orbs

"

Gafgarion wrote:

Would you rather...


use a mirror on that wand now

-or-

save it in hopes that you hit something awesome with more orbs

is a hard call.

use mirror for atleast 2 prefix rolls.

save mirror in hopes to dupe if it hits.

pre-roll mirror gives 100% more rolls to hit. (although the real number is small going from 1 to 2 vs immense value of mirror.) have to weigh those rolls vs the possibility of seeing another wand with those mods. i think the safest thing to do would be mirror the wand. use exalteds on the mirrored wand, and keep orgininal for future mirrors as a base target (assuming this wasnt a short time left beta but already in release)

this would give entire population a mirror target that has 2 of the 3 most important prefixes as a base to work from thats miles and miles ahead of starting from scratch. i dont think this situation is out of the realm of possibilities either in the future of poe in current crafting state.

this is my thought process and i extreme min/max everything i do pretty much. i know not all agree with it, but gives light into other options.

post-roll mirror is either amazing or useless on that wand, but still worth tons unused.

this topic also sheds light onto the power level of scour 2.0 ... would never even ask the question of pre-exalted mirror because you would simply scour 2.0 an exalted miss.

is more food for thought.

to further complicate things. if exalted hits a prefix and misses, then the item (wand) is realistically worth less than it was pre exalted from no longer having the possibility to go godmode, thus losing the appeal of mirror all together.

so from my point of view and ability. i would mirror pre-roll and then make decision to either sell/trade the copy or take my chances with exalteds on the copy.

i would leave original how it is either way. im 90% sure of that.

same idea's and principles would be used on any other item. is not limited only to this wand.

nonamehoe had a caster wand with (i believe) archmage + spell crit + crit mult + faster cast. thats 4/5 godlike caster wand. if exalted hits 40/50/or60 sd it would be the 100% definite mirror target for all wand using casters in the game. of course exalteds missed and is now worth a fraction of its value pre exalted. just to further prove what im trying to say.

so i guess without even trying to do so, ive deduced mirror puts a time frame on godly weapons/items being crafted. be it very long, expensive (rightly so), and requires different thought processes... its still there.

so multiple edits and debates with self later, thats my answer. ha!

"

Chopatron wrote:

nonamehoe had a caster wand with (i believe) archmage + spell crit + crit mult + faster cast. thats 4/5 godlike caster wand. if exalted hits 40/50/or60 sd it would be the 100% definite mirror target for all wand using casters in the game. of course exalteds missed and is now worth a fraction of its value pre exalted. just to further prove what im trying to say.

I sold a SD wand with Prestidigitation ( or Expertise if I'm mistaken ), Incanter's , Archmage & some mod I can't seem to remember a few weeks ago. I believe NoNameHoe picked that one up as well :P

As more stats enters the pool it will be harder to roll these items. For example the reflect mods seems to be new as of a few patches ago at most. Even if they don't apply to weapons there will probably be more weapon mods at release as well. It's one of my largest gripes that there's such a super distinct difference between shit stats & awesome stats.

"

Chopatron wrote:

"

Gafgarion wrote:

Would you rather...


use a mirror on that wand now

-or-

save it in hopes that you hit something awesome with more orbs

is a hard call.

use mirror for atleast 2 prefix rolls.

save mirror in hopes to dupe if it hits.

pre-roll mirror gives 100% more rolls to hit.

It's probably better to use the exalted orbs first. I believe they plan to make it so duplicated items can not be augmented with currency items, but I'm not sure if it is currently implemented. You also can't duplicate a mirrored item.

"

Chris wrote:

"

Faerwin wrote:

I'm sorry but it is flawed. In a game like diablo, where new content comes every leap years at best, yeah, I can see that being true.

In your case though, you said that you are gonna implement new content as the game go on and thus, I don't think you should be that concerned about someone getting godly gear in a year of play since new content should make that gear not nearly as good as it used to.

Our goal is that people's items (that represent a lot of hard work) don't become worthless whenever we add new content.

I was playing an MMORPG a few years ago. I spent a fair amount of time getting some pretty decent items. When the expansion came out, those items were completely inferior to simple quest rewards given in the starting area of the new content. That did not feel good to me as a player.

If we are talking about adding items, thats how it has to be though, probably not to the extend of starting items being better than the previous endgame items, but the new lategame stuff definitely needs to be better than the old lategame stuff.

If added items were to be worse than their predecessors, then there is no point to adding them, you might aswell just never introduce new items.

You cant go about this as the player that got angry when he was robbed of his items in a MMORPG when the expansion kicked in.
From a company standpoint, adding new easily available stuff keeps casual gamers from leaving the game, because they are less likely to stick around if it takes 1000 chaos orbs to roll a "decent" weapon.
If they dont play the game anymore, they wont buy microtransactions.

Whats the point of making it overly hard to get new equipment (even with new added content) if it only accomplishes to please a very small percentage of hardcore gamers that actually managed to roll something decent with 10k orbs, while casual gamers leave your game left and right?

On the other hand, what would it accomplish if you made rerolling of better items easier (with better items added over time)?
It ensures that a large percentage of the playerbase has always new stuff to do and new items to equip, without putting too too much effort into the game, thus they are more likely to stay and pay for microtransactions, while a small percentage of hardcore gamers is pissed off for a week and then plays on anyways.

Just look at LoL for a minute.
Its extremely easy to get new stuff (while new stuff is being added frequently), thats why so many casuals are playing it and keep playing it.
The more players you have, the more microtransactions will occur.

I would consider myself a hardcore gamer myself, but i still have the common sense to understand that a move that pisses us hardcore gamers off in exchange for pleasing 80% of the playerbase, is a good move for you guys.

Especially since i know that i will get the new lategame items alot faster than any casual gamer anyways, doesnt matter if they have better gear in the new starting area than i had before the expansion.


You could even make your pie and eat it too by introducing something that allows hardcore gamers to recycle their hard work, like a very rare orb that recycles an item of their choice, giving them back a percentage of the orbs that were used on it.
That way you enable them to bring some of their hard work into the new content, enabling you guys to introduce stronger items (which pleases casuals) without pissing hardcore gamers off too much (since their hard work isnt lost completely, they get a huge headsup).

"

gh0un wrote:

If we are talking about adding items, thats how it has to be though, probably not to the extend of starting items being better than the previous endgame items, but the new lategame stuff definitely needs to be better than the old lategame stuff.
...
Just look at LoL for a minute.

League of Legends releases new content very often, but it's a balancing error if the new content is purely "better" than the old stuff. They've done exactly what people want: more content in the meat of the game instead of just bigger and bigger numbers at the end.

"

gh0un wrote:

I would consider myself a hardcore gamer myself, but i still have the common sense to understand that a move that pisses us hardcore gamers off in exchange for pleasing 80% of the playerbase, is a good move for you guys.

Ideally GGG is not forced to make such decisions.

There's plenty of room in the game for all kinds of players. For people that like to spend a lot of time in the game, there are a LOT of builds to make (and hopefully an order of magnitude more at launch) and there is a quite difficult job obtaining 'godly' gear (as this thread has made clear by now).

For the average person, there shouldn't be any entitlement that they deserve the best gear or the rarest uniques or to find the best build on their first try or whatever. There's no way to fix this in-game, it's simply user error.


Footnote: chatting about the 'hardcore'/'casual' gamer false dichotomy is dangerous. Nobody likes to be labelled, and for as hardcore as you think you are, there is someone that makes you look very small.

"

pneuma wrote:

"

gh0un wrote:

If we are talking about adding items, thats how it has to be though, probably not to the extend of starting items being better than the previous endgame items, but the new lategame stuff definitely needs to be better than the old lategame stuff.
...
Just look at LoL for a minute.

League of Legends releases new content very often, but it's a balancing error if the new content is purely "better" than the old stuff. They've done exactly what people want: more content in the meat of the game instead of just bigger and bigger numbers at the end.

"

gh0un wrote:

I would consider myself a hardcore gamer myself, but i still have the common sense to understand that a move that pisses us hardcore gamers off in exchange for pleasing 80% of the playerbase, is a good move for you guys.

For the average person, there shouldn't be any entitlement that they deserve the best gear or the rarest uniques or to find the best build on their first try or whatever. There's no way to fix this in-game, it's simply user error.

And how exactly is that not the case with how things work currently?
Your average joe could get lucky and create the best weapon possible on his first try, while our hardcore player already used over 1000 orbs total and has nothing comparable.

How exactly is our joe more entitled than our hardcore gamer to call himself the owner of the best item.
He isnt, in any way shape or form.

Thats the problem with extremely low probabilities on orb drops that grant extremely low probabilities to create something useful, you could amass 10k orbs and still fail to create anything of significance, while your average joe creates something useful on his first try.

You can have low drop chance on the orbs, or low probability to create something useful as the orbs effect, but if you combine both (which is the case for exalted orbs for example)you got yourself such a low probablity that you cant purposefully try to get better gear (or create), its all a lottery.

Just like you wont increase your chances to win in a lottery by much if you were to doube/triple the amount of work you put in (you buy 3 lottery tickets instead of 1), neither will you increase your chance to create better gear by a lot if you put in 9 hours a day instead of 3.
In both cases, you wont win the lottery, and you wont create better gear.

The one that wins the lottery (or creates better gear), can very well be your average lucky joe (and thats how it is with lotteries most of the time, they arent won by hardcore lottery players, they are won by people that gave it a try).

Having extremely low dropchances on some orbs, but then also making their effect completely luck based, would require you to exponentially increase your efforts (complexity O(n²) or more) in order to get something done, which is just not feasible for many players, just like chop demonstrated to us.
He put in O(1000 x N) effort, but it didnt matter shit.

Look at diablo, they had extremely low drop chances on the best runes, however if you finally found them you surely had an upgrade in your hands.

If you finally find good orbs in PoE, you arent guaranteed anything, you arent entitled to anything, even if you already put in 10k hours, the possibility to roll complete bullshit is probably going to be the case (just like chop demonstrated).
That doesnt reward the better player, that rewards the bigger lucker.

What the crafting system needs, is to have orbs (whose effects are luck based) that drop alot more often, while also having orbs that drop extremely scarcely, but in return have fixed improvements (like the mirror)

Exalteds have low drop chance AND low probability to roll something useful: needs to be changed to higher drop chance OR fixed improvement as an effect.

Just like when people thought at first that jewelers would be worth something and later realized that they are utterly worthless, since creating 5 linked or 6 linked stuff needs way too many of them.
People are storing them up because they cant trade them for anything else, but they dont use them either because creating something isnt really possible.

Same thing with fusings.
They started off fairly valuable, but as time passes, people start to realize that the same problem as with the jewelers applies (just to a higher extend).
Fusings are relatively rare, and the desired effect (5 link or 6 link) is extremely rare on top of that.
Only thing left they are being used on is on gear that can only have 4 links (like boots and gloves) because the desired effect can be achieved.
As soon as everyone has those itemslots full with 4 links etc, fusings will drop in value alot, and they will start to be stockpiled just like jewelers, since using them is a waste.

Same will apply to regals, divines and exalteds, for the same reasons, it will just take longer because these orbs are harder to come by.


If divines and exalteds and regals etc stay like they currently are, i can see them losing worth pretty fast (as people start to realize that they are useless with such a low droprate), and instead people will trade with 5 linked and 6 linked items, because thats not based on luck (just like chop assumes: people will realize that exalteds etc are useless).

"

pneuma wrote:

Footnote: chatting about the 'hardcore'/'casual' gamer false dichotomy is dangerous. Nobody likes to be labelled, and for as hardcore as you think you are, there is someone that makes you look very small.

not gonna sidetrack thread with this much, but it deserves to be addressed.

you are taking it in form of worth , value, or skill of a player which it is not. its a simple label given to judge time available to play of different players.

i.e.

casual being someone that cant play more than 1-3 hours a day on a regular basis.

hardcore / no lifer being someone online 8+ a day consistently.

you take up for the casual at end of your paragraph with a statement comparing a hardcore to an even more hardcore player. point being they both have measurable advantages over a casual. it doesnt give any credit to play skill, talent, or any other word you want to use to describe ability to play at a higher level.

"always someone out there thats better than you" i think this is what you are trying to relate the label to, but it doesnt apply.

taking every label on the planet IRL and turning it into a derogatory stereotype gets extremely old and tiring. please dont do it in a damn video game =(.

i avidly take up and try to help the casual base, they are the ones that make games fly.

argue pro vs noob. you can win that 1 and i'll agree. total different context.

sorry, just strikes a nerve.

I dont really mind that it takes 100s of orbs to make a super godly rare, I like that it just makes it so the good rares are that much more valuable.

Also I 100% guarantee there will be bots once the games released and bot devs/programmers get a hand on the game. So thats also a plus that eventho people are farming with multiple accounts, it would still take a lot of rolls to get anything worth value.

Doesn't guaranteed item improvement just create a system with guaranteed inflation, and it also makes crafting MORE viable than farming, which defeats the purpose of this genre of game. This statement is a VERY broad stroke of the pen, please take it as such. Just my 2 cents.