When are we getting better trading tools?

Seems some missed their basic economics lessons.

To start: Supply and demand.

If you are for the AH explain how you would operate it. Would it be run with instant buyout while AFK or not even logged in? Is that the most important thing yall want?

The very simple fact is that the trading game the way it is is quite manageable and quite fine overall. Simply screeching AUCTION HOUSE wont make that a better system, if anything I would say it has the potential to ruin the game for a long time.

Here are some reasons why:
-Orb flipping with an instant buyout auction house can make people rich in an INSTANT rather than over time completing trades-
No longer does it take an hour to create exalts trading between currencies. You simply create the buy orders, monitor the trades occurring and buy those orbs instantly with no repercussions. The only reason I don't do this already is TIME. If you cut away the time I would simply get rich quick on trading for a few days, then get my gear and the league is over. I would hardly have to play the actual game. It would all be too easy and lose it's gratification.
Couple this with the fact that many orbs would become kind of trivial when you can sell the ones you don't/want or need and buy the ones you want/need from people who don't want those same orbs. This may very well crash all sorts of currency constantly.

-Items that aren't high tier become next to worthless-
How so?
I pick up a nice item, now I would be IDing more items that are meta because, well, I want to sell them. Or I completely ignore them because there's already a guy with a good item competing with all the other instant sellers with what was previously a good item. Right now, you pick up a good item or base and you craft on it, well... no reason to with the AH you can probably go buy one for way less currency because they are easily acquired from people who are AFK/Not using the build for cheaper than they are now.

Right now, certain items only have the costs they do because they are competing with people who are pricing them. Well, if you want to buy an opal ring there is an initial barrier to entry. If you want to sell it why would you go way lower than the lowest price available?
If someone wants instant gratification they sell that item for cheaper than the rest of people. Well, if no one budges from their high point, then the economy gets flooded until there is a crash (People want to get that value from their item).

This doesn't really happen on PoE now (at least not often) and it would happen often with an auction house allowing for people to trade items instantly at no opportunity cost.

When opportunity costs are eliminated people will begin to sell out whatever they find that they wont use in an already flooded market. Inevitably currency and decent rares will get flooded onto the market and will exchange hands very rapidly (and eventually not at all). Making all of those items worth less than they are now. ALL OF THEM.

Once this happens items like Headhunter may become worth less very quickly, or more depending on how easily acquired materials are to make them. If all HH rollers could easily Buyout leather belts on mass and chances, then the cost goes down as more hit the market. If everyone is getting what they want with no OPPORTUNITY COST the game loses it's value over time because acquisition isn't a cost it's hardly a chore. Progressing through the game inevitably becomes easier due to the fact that gear is easier to attain. And the real game you would be a fool to not play is the AH. Because that's where you'll get rich. Richer than actually playing the damn game (which is possible now, but with FULL DEDICATION TO THAT PURPOSE). Right now I make money on the side with some currency trades and item trades. I mostly run maps, labs and bosses though.

Currently a player like me has a bunch of orbs I don't tend on using. I sell them at a decent rate, but if I could have swapped my currency around instantly and bought out at the lowest rates and sold high rated currency I could make way more than I do mapping. Eventually invalidating the whole point of the game. Which I do enjoy.

Spending less than 3 exalts to make a personal build to do shaper was fun this league. It took me some time to get there and earn the currency. If I started with the currency from my first char and swapped in an instant trading market I wouldn't have had to theory craft my cheap build that I wanted to play/make. I would have just gotten everything I needed flipping around and leveled up a guy when I got enough currency. Also, the fact that I would just be able to set sell orders and map, then break to make more sell orders, and repeat ad nauseum would eliminate immersion. Breaking out of the experience of actually playing the game.

As it stands I choose which sales I will make. All those chaos items I sell early in a league, I wouldn't be able to sell for a chaos in an instant market. At this point I don't even break for those as it's not worth it, but in an instant market those types of items become worth an Alt or less, because someone out there would sell low.

Ugh... This is real simple stuff... The entire game would need to be rebalanced if there was an AH.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp

Even games like Madden had to add an AH tax to stop fixing/flipping issues. You think price fixing becomes better with an AH?

Whatever... All in all the AH would automate the game too much and make it way too easy in it's current state. If they rebalance all drops over time (limiting EVERYTHING more than it is), then it may work eventually, but then it wont be nearly as fun. All map level drops would need limiting and the game would become even more barren and bereft of value than it is without Biscos.

The way the game is played now seems well liked. Encountering the occasional AFK or price fixer on trade is a problem everyone should be able to live with.
Last edited by Morgasming on Oct 17, 2017, 6:57:12 PM
"
MasterAxe wrote:
"
Miská wrote:


Your mindset is wrong to begin with. Wich is why you will never appreciate how GGG wants trading to flow in this game. I mean...using WoW as an example is just beyond ignorance. The games are nothing alike. I mean, you can't even buy gear besides the few BoE items.

'Play the actual game'

That's funny considering trade IS part of the game. If you don't like it go play SSF. Or stop being lazy and use PoE.trade aslong as it's still around. I really hope for a downgrade on convenience trading wise, so every single person like you just goes away immediately. Getting so sick and tired of the entitled spoiled brat behaviour.

It's already been shown multiple times what an AH would do to this game. I feel like you just put your fingers in your ear and scream lalalala. EVERYTHING besides the handful of GG items will become completely worthless. In before you come to the forum after your dream has been fulfilled that you can't sell shit, because the market is overflown with mediocre shit.



1)Trading does not FLOW in this game, that is the problem, and what does slightly flow well, is dependent on third party sites and tools

2)Yes it would be nice to play the game, instead of having to Grind Trades

3)point one, dependent on third parties

4)NOTHING has been shown or proven, infact the only items that would be worthless with an AH, are all ready worthless. The in demand items will always be in demand due to rarity/scarcity and a game designed upon layers and layers of bad range.


What does it matter what the trading is build upon right now? PoE.trade was so popular GGG decided to embrace Poe.trade instead of creating the same thing. Does it really matter it's a third party tool?

Trading = playing the game. Trade is part of PoE. The droprates are revolving around trade. What's not to understand about this? Maybe YOU don't like to trade/interact at all. I do, and Poe does it pretty well. Sure the afk people are annoying, but it's not half as bad as many bloat it to be.

Go learn some basic economics. Imaging it like this. A small town of 100 people all grow their own veggies. To sell the veggies they will have to bring the product to a general store and sell it to them. Alot of people won't bother doing so, because it takes time, gas. Requires a truck of some sort. Then a system gets implemented that everyone can insta sell their veggies without any effort straight at home. What do you think happens to the price of veggies?

Basic.....stuff

Not to mention it has been proven since they introduced the tabs. Prices dropped across the board and created the annoyance we have right now. Yes, more convenience cause that YOU now have to deal with AFK people. And why nothing, unless exeptional, sells anymore these days. Add on top the extreme convencience of just putting it in a tab and forget about it. Before Premium tabs it was ALOT better.
Last edited by Miská on Oct 17, 2017, 7:59:25 PM
"
Morgasming wrote:
Seems some missed their basic economics lessons.

To start: Supply and demand.

If you are for the AH explain how you would operate it. Would it be run with instant buyout while AFK or not even logged in? Is that the most important thing yall want?

The very simple fact is that the trading game the way it is is quite manageable and quite fine overall. Simply screeching AUCTION HOUSE wont make that a better system, if anything I would say it has the potential to ruin the game for a long time.

Here are some reasons why:
-Orb flipping with an instant buyout auction house can make people rich in an INSTANT rather than over time completing trades-
No longer does it take an hour to create exalts trading between currencies. You simply create the buy orders, monitor the trades occurring and buy those orbs instantly with no repercussions. The only reason I don't do this already is TIME. If you cut away the time I would simply get rich quick on trading for a few days, then get my gear and the league is over. I would hardly have to play the actual game. It would all be too easy and lose it's gratification.
Couple this with the fact that many orbs would become kind of trivial when you can sell the ones you don't/want or need and buy the ones you want/need from people who don't want those same orbs. This may very well crash all sorts of currency constantly.

-Items that aren't high tier become next to worthless-
How so?
I pick up a nice item, now I would be IDing more items that are meta because, well, I want to sell them. Or I completely ignore them because there's already a guy with a good item competing with all the other instant sellers with what was previously a good item. Right now, you pick up a good item or base and you craft on it, well... no reason to with the AH you can probably go buy one for way less currency because they are easily acquired from people who are AFK/Not using the build for cheaper than they are now.

Right now, certain items only have the costs they do because they are competing with people who are pricing them. Well, if you want to buy an opal ring there is an initial barrier to entry. If you want to sell it why would you go way lower than the lowest price available?
If someone wants instant gratification they sell that item for cheaper than the rest of people. Well, if no one budges from their high point, then the economy gets flooded until there is a crash (People want to get that value from their item).

This doesn't really happen on PoE now (at least not often) and it would happen often with an auction house allowing for people to trade items instantly at no opportunity cost.

When opportunity costs are eliminated people will begin to sell out whatever they find that they wont use in an already flooded market. Inevitably currency and decent rares will get flooded onto the market and will exchange hands very rapidly (and eventually not at all). Making all of those items worth less than they are now. ALL OF THEM.

Once this happens items like Headhunter may become worth less very quickly, or more depending on how easily acquired materials are to make them. If all HH rollers could easily Buyout leather belts on mass and chances, then the cost goes down as more hit the market. If everyone is getting what they want with no OPPORTUNITY COST the game loses it's value over time because acquisition isn't a cost it's hardly a chore. Progressing through the game inevitably becomes easier due to the fact that gear is easier to attain. And the real game you would be a fool to not play is the AH. Because that's where you'll get rich. Richer than actually playing the damn game (which is possible now, but with FULL DEDICATION TO THAT PURPOSE). Right now I make money on the side with some currency trades and item trades. I mostly run maps, labs and bosses though.

Currently a player like me has a bunch of orbs I don't tend on using. I sell them at a decent rate, but if I could have swapped my currency around instantly and bought out at the lowest rates and sold high rated currency I could make way more than I do mapping. Eventually invalidating the whole point of the game. Which I do enjoy.

Spending less than 3 exalts to make a personal build to do shaper was fun this league. It took me some time to get there and earn the currency. If I started with the currency from my first char and swapped in an instant trading market I wouldn't have had to theory craft my cheap build that I wanted to play/make. I would have just gotten everything I needed flipping around and leveled up a guy when I got enough currency. Also, the fact that I would just be able to set sell orders and map, then break to make more sell orders, and repeat ad nauseum would eliminate immersion. Breaking out of the experience of actually playing the game.

As it stands I choose which sales I will make. All those chaos items I sell early in a league, I wouldn't be able to sell for a chaos in an instant market. At this point I don't even break for those as it's not worth it, but in an instant market those types of items become worth an Alt or less, because someone out there would sell low.

Ugh... This is real simple stuff... The entire game would need to be rebalanced if there was an AH.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp

Even games like Madden had to add an AH tax to stop fixing/flipping issues. You think price fixing becomes better with an AH?

Whatever... All in all the AH would automate the game too much and make it way too easy in it's current state. If they rebalance all drops over time (limiting EVERYTHING more than it is), then it may work eventually, but then it wont be nearly as fun. All map level drops would need limiting and the game would become even more barren and bereft of value than it is without Biscos.

The way the game is played now seems well liked. Encountering the occasional AFK or price fixer on trade is a problem everyone should be able to live with.


Somewhere in the Asian continent, a person just got to level 80 in the time it took to post this.

Hmmm..and I wonder why I am muted in game for posts like this...hee hee.

Edit: I had to burp...
-Time to be funny. The world needs funny right now! Warning: "Might" get you muted.

25 Exalts...oh God my stupidity stuck! Now onto 25 Divines...
Last edited by MourningBlade on Oct 17, 2017, 9:55:31 PM
"
Miská wrote:
It's already been shown multiple times what an AH would do to this game. I feel like you just put your fingers in your ear and scream lalalala.

I'm yet to see anything other than baseless speculation. We hear what you are saying. The problem is that you offer nothing that backs it up.

"
Miská wrote:
EVERYTHING besides the handful of GG items will become completely worthless.

There you go again. How do you know this? There is nothing that suggests that it will be that extreme.

"
Miská wrote:
Go learn some basic economics. Imaging it like this. A small town of 100 people all grow their own veggies. To sell the veggies they will have to bring the product to a general store and sell it to them. Alot of people won't bother doing so, because it takes time, gas. Requires a truck of some sort. Then a system gets implemented that everyone can insta sell their veggies without any effort straight at home. What do you think happens to the price of veggies?

The problem with that analogy is that some of the veggies are worth the drive to the general store. I think that once the system is convenient enough, majority of the valuable stuff finds its way to the market. I don't think that you can say with certainty that a lot of people don't bother selling decent stuff right now, and that those same people will start selling it in an AH. So, I really don't see where people are pulling all this new supply of good items that will make pretty much everything worthless. I can see how the price of most items will drop some, but there is nothing that suggests that it will be as extreme as you predict.
"
Morgasming wrote:
Seems some missed their basic economics lessons.

...


I never took economy classes, but here's some points I genuinely don't understand:

- Your post seems to imply that, once an AH is implemented, everyone can get arbitrarily wealthy (simultaneously). This seems counterintuitive, could you explain how this works?

- Rather than the above, I would consider it more likely that the vast majority of players become LESS wealthy, and a select few become (much) more wealthy. The total amount of currency is finite and remains constant after all (not constant, but trade is zero-sum is what I'm saying).

- People are claiming that prices will crash once an AH is added. It may be noteworthy that vendors ensure a minimum base worth of items in terms of currency, so prices will never reach zero. In other words, even if you can't sell to other players, you can retain a minimum income.

- If the prices of items crash, but so does the income of the vast majority of players, how does this affect their effective buying power? In terms of "desirable item"-income per unit time played, does anything actually necessarily change?
Last edited by laurensk on Oct 18, 2017, 1:11:25 AM
we also have to talk about league vs standard in this discussion. Some people are debating from a league perspective, while other from a standard perspective. You can not compare the economy of these two leagues. In league you have more of a dynamic economy that changes rapidly, because players "have" to sell. They don't have "all the time in the world", and can't always afford NOT to push their prices down.

In standard, the economy is more static. Prices don't change that much from day to day, hour to hour. In standard, you have a HUGE amount of "dusted down" items that would see the light of day if an AH is implemented. Also, a lot of players sit on a lot of currency, and can afford to wait several days before they change their prices, they don't "have to sell now".

In league, you have an economy that grows more and more "unhealthy" as times go by (which is more or less inevitable) as more items and currency hit the market. An AH would make this happen faster; more items will probably be identified, more items will hit the market and the value of most gear will be pushed down to be able to sell this gear.

But hey, this is just "speculations", right? But I have yet to see a good counter argument to this, and an explanation as to why this won't happen.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
"
Phrazz wrote:

But hey, this is just "speculations", right? But I have yet to see a good counter argument to this, and an explanation as to why this won't happen.


I'm not actually leaning to either side currently. I'd conceptually like the improved convenience of instant buyouts, but appreciate that I don't have the expertise to anticipate the economical consequences of such a change.

One point I'm not sure about is the effective buying power of the average player as both income and prices decrease, as I mentioned in my previous post (the one above yours). (Do you have thoughts on this?)

Here's another thought:

"
Phrazz wrote:
An AH would make this happen faster; more items will probably be identified, more items will hit the market and the value of most gear will be pushed down to be able to sell this gear.


Assume (ex absurdo) that this conclusion is correct, and that prices of gear go down when an AH is introduced due to these reasons.

If the value of gear goes down, then so does the EXPECTED value of gear that has not yet been identified. Hence, this increases, relatively, the opportunity cost of picking up and identifying gear (time that could also be spend on killing monsters for possible direct currency drops, for example).

We're already at the point where identifying gear is not really worth it, and you're better of killing more mobs for a chance to drop currency or divination cards. In the above scenario, the expected net benefit of picking up and identifying items is decreased even further, into what might very well become (if it isn't already) a negative value; i.e., players incur a net loss if they follow this strategy.

Assuming rationality of players, this causes them to actually pick up and identify LESS items, causing LESS items to hit the market, and due to decreased supply, prices will increase. This contradicts the initial assumption, which must therefore be wrong.

What is the flaw in the above line of reasoning?
Last edited by laurensk on Oct 18, 2017, 2:51:06 AM
"
Morgasming wrote:
Seems some missed their basic economics lessons.

To start: Supply and demand.

If you are for the AH explain how you would operate it. Would it be run with instant buyout while AFK or not even logged in? Is that the most important thing yall want?

The very simple fact is that the trading game the way it is is quite manageable and quite fine overall. Simply screeching AUCTION HOUSE wont make that a better system, if anything I would say it has the potential to ruin the game for a long time.

Here are some reasons why:
-Orb flipping with an instant buyout auction house can make people rich in an INSTANT rather than over time completing trades-
No longer does it take an hour to create exalts trading between currencies. You simply create the buy orders, monitor the trades occurring and buy those orbs instantly with no repercussions. The only reason I don't do this already is TIME. If you cut away the time I would simply get rich quick on trading for a few days, then get my gear and the league is over. I would hardly have to play the actual game. It would all be too easy and lose it's gratification.
Couple this with the fact that many orbs would become kind of trivial when you can sell the ones you don't/want or need and buy the ones you want/need from people who don't want those same orbs. This may very well crash all sorts of currency constantly.

-Items that aren't high tier become next to worthless-
How so?
I pick up a nice item, now I would be IDing more items that are meta because, well, I want to sell them. Or I completely ignore them because there's already a guy with a good item competing with all the other instant sellers with what was previously a good item. Right now, you pick up a good item or base and you craft on it, well... no reason to with the AH you can probably go buy one for way less currency because they are easily acquired from people who are AFK/Not using the build for cheaper than they are now.

Right now, certain items only have the costs they do because they are competing with people who are pricing them. Well, if you want to buy an opal ring there is an initial barrier to entry. If you want to sell it why would you go way lower than the lowest price available?
If someone wants instant gratification they sell that item for cheaper than the rest of people. Well, if no one budges from their high point, then the economy gets flooded until there is a crash (People want to get that value from their item).

This doesn't really happen on PoE now (at least not often) and it would happen often with an auction house allowing for people to trade items instantly at no opportunity cost.

When opportunity costs are eliminated people will begin to sell out whatever they find that they wont use in an already flooded market. Inevitably currency and decent rares will get flooded onto the market and will exchange hands very rapidly (and eventually not at all). Making all of those items worth less than they are now. ALL OF THEM.

Once this happens items like Headhunter may become worth less very quickly, or more depending on how easily acquired materials are to make them. If all HH rollers could easily Buyout leather belts on mass and chances, then the cost goes down as more hit the market. If everyone is getting what they want with no OPPORTUNITY COST the game loses it's value over time because acquisition isn't a cost it's hardly a chore. Progressing through the game inevitably becomes easier due to the fact that gear is easier to attain. And the real game you would be a fool to not play is the AH. Because that's where you'll get rich. Richer than actually playing the damn game (which is possible now, but with FULL DEDICATION TO THAT PURPOSE). Right now I make money on the side with some currency trades and item trades. I mostly run maps, labs and bosses though.

Currently a player like me has a bunch of orbs I don't tend on using. I sell them at a decent rate, but if I could have swapped my currency around instantly and bought out at the lowest rates and sold high rated currency I could make way more than I do mapping. Eventually invalidating the whole point of the game. Which I do enjoy.

Spending less than 3 exalts to make a personal build to do shaper was fun this league. It took me some time to get there and earn the currency. If I started with the currency from my first char and swapped in an instant trading market I wouldn't have had to theory craft my cheap build that I wanted to play/make. I would have just gotten everything I needed flipping around and leveled up a guy when I got enough currency. Also, the fact that I would just be able to set sell orders and map, then break to make more sell orders, and repeat ad nauseum would eliminate immersion. Breaking out of the experience of actually playing the game.

As it stands I choose which sales I will make. All those chaos items I sell early in a league, I wouldn't be able to sell for a chaos in an instant market. At this point I don't even break for those as it's not worth it, but in an instant market those types of items become worth an Alt or less, because someone out there would sell low.

Ugh... This is real simple stuff... The entire game would need to be rebalanced if there was an AH.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp

Even games like Madden had to add an AH tax to stop fixing/flipping issues. You think price fixing becomes better with an AH?

Whatever... All in all the AH would automate the game too much and make it way too easy in it's current state. If they rebalance all drops over time (limiting EVERYTHING more than it is), then it may work eventually, but then it wont be nearly as fun. All map level drops would need limiting and the game would become even more barren and bereft of value than it is without Biscos.

The way the game is played now seems well liked. Encountering the occasional AFK or price fixer on trade is a problem everyone should be able to live with.


I'm in total agreement with you. -- https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2019531
We're not alone -- https://youtu.be/FAEhCH4ewDY
Last edited by XyiC0re on Oct 18, 2017, 3:20:10 AM
I'd like to point out that in other games with AH, good gear that is either rare or hard to obtain is not cheap, so why do people think an AH will crash the market?
Chill Jams
Lot of people seem to think automated trading will crash the market. News flash this already happened when ggg implemented premium tabs and an API. Before that I could actually make legit currency running my forum thread shop. People will become rich off flipping currency with or without the AH some people enjoy that some don't. Some want a combination of both, in no way will the AH change the values of items, everyone who wants to list something already can, the only thing that will change is wasted time alt tabbing/messaging/afk/dnd people.

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