The Illusion of Choice

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funshynebare wrote:

<snip>

Look at barbs in D3. Lots of them run WW still. However, as you progress in gear, WW becomes impossible to use unless you drastically scale up in MP levels because you kill too quickly to gain rage.

So you have to change your build. For Ubers, you don't even use WW.

This is an example of gear and encounters changing how you play your character. It's also an example of how gaining power forces you to change your build when doing exp runs.

Tempest Rush. Very unique skill. Very poor choice to use in most situations. Unless you have amazing gear and an amazing 2H weapon. Then TR becomes one of the fastest speed clearing builds in the game.

That's actually an example of a bad game system.

Why? Because you can't use Whirlwind anymore. What if you WANT to use Whirlwind? Well, too bad -- it doesn't work anymore, for the reasons you said.

Which is a big part of why D3 fell apart: the game systems are weak.

Your original complaint, which I am not sure if you stand by, is that you have no choice because you have to min-max, or at least you are stuck with certain decisions if you want to min-max.

Both those claims are patently false. It's possible to play the game and have fun with a sub-par character. You won't clear as fast and you might die, but the build will work. You don't HAVE to min-max.

Also, you are not stuck with certain decisions if you want to min-max. There are several optimal builds for every class, but they are limited because we are talking about MIN-MAXING. There is no ONE uber build that everyone who is min-maxing is shoehorned into. Do a lot of those min-maxed builds involve stacking life and picking up defensive keystones? Yep. Why? Because math.

So you have compared apples to oranges here. A lot of people have refuted your claims with anecdotal examples, and now I'm throwing game theory at you. Are you willing to concede that you could possibly be off-base here?

BTW, I'm a developer. No, I don't work on, for, or in competition with GGG; I wholeheartedly endorse and enjoy their products, from at least the short time that I have been interacting with them.

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funshynebare wrote:

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Zalm wrote:

Says the guy complaining there arent enough choices for OP chars.

There aren't enough choices.
You've even said there aren't enough choices.

That's not being elitist. That's pointing out the obvious.

Define 'enough'. I currently have 4 different characters. Each is a different class, each a different build, and I'm planning at least 3 more. That's way more than I can say for pretty much any other ARPG I've played.
Yes, you have to stack survivavility to survive, no shit. Build diversity is not only linked to your skill tree but to the skills you use and with which support gems you convine them. You don't see diversity because you don't want to. Check the subforums for each class and you'll see people using molten shell as their main DPS skill for example, and all sorts of viable builds which are not just LA ranger and GMP spectre witch. There are plenty of choices, but you are the one who has to make the choice between boring cookiecutter builds and trying something new.

to me i have enough build i can play with, and im happy about that.

melees are in tough spot no doubt but improvements are on its way.


but no matter how we say OP won't listen so... why would you stick to play? you dont have to.

go play what you like, in this case, diablo?.

game will always be free, you can come back whenever. until then, take care.

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guidoo wrote:

Yes, you have to stack survivavility to survive, no shit.

ROFLMAO

I dont always agree with you Guidoo, but that was brilliant.

TC's name is pretty close to a D3 troll that visits the PoE board on GameFAQs. I don't know if that helps you guys out or not.

I play a templar, and I faceroll maps (level 70 maps atm, doing them since 73) with 2.5k hp and 300 ES. I get my survivability from blocking and an Aegis Aurora. My offensive skill is infernal blow. I can do well without the shield, but obviously it brings it to another level.

I've seen what the cookie cutter classes do and I can do the same or better/faster. My next character I think will be a Duelist, just to show how you can make it work. People who complain about little viable choices are simply put, too dumb or are expecting everything to be laid out in front of them.

You expect GGG to balance their huge passive map and number of spells so that there aren't builds that are above the rest? Impossible. You will have a spectrum of builds, and some will be the best for some scenarios, maybe all scenarios. But you DON'T HAVE to stack hp to survive and you DON'T HAVE to do anything that everyone is doing because it's the easiest course of action.

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jnali wrote:

That's actually an example of a bad game system.

Why? Because you can't use Whirlwind anymore. What if you WANT to use Whirlwind? Well, too bad -- it doesn't work anymore, for the reasons you said.

Which is a big part of why D3 fell apart: the game systems are weak.

-snip-

I'm going to stop you here.

You can still use WW while out-gearing content in D3. It is subpar though. You will be rage starved. You will clear slower rather than changing up your skills. But you can choose to use it if you wish.

You claim this is a big part why D3 failed. Yet, in this very sentence, you contradict everything you've claimed.

You entire post after this point is about purposely creating sub par characters. You don't have to min/max.

Nothing screams a weak game system than one where the only way to challenge yourself is to bind your hands and feet and wear a blindfold.

Horse hockey....

Seriously, there are many builds that are viable. The fact is...you choose to play follow the leader rather than the game itself.

My friends and I build characters that compliment a team (you know, group play). Solo, my build is difficult. In our group it is pretty damn powerful. Will you see it winning a ladder? Nope. In hardcore? Nope.

Do I care?

You guessed it...nope.

Am I having fun? Yep....

Play the flipping game...stop being a lemming....

i love d3.

what i dislike about D3
1. way too much gear dependant.
2. act 3 over and over.
3. cloud QQ affects nerf/buff too much.


basically gear is everything, then act 3 is the only best option, easy to predict incoming nerf/buff by looking at people's QQ on the forum.



1. hopeless, it won't get better,
2. much hope in the future.
3. hopeless.

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funshynebare wrote:

Nothing screams a weak game system than one where the only way to challenge yourself is to bind your hands and feet and wear a blindfold.

You do realize that many of the "huge differences" between min-max builds and "average" builds is usually pretty minimal, percentage-wise, right?

Example...

Player 1: "Everyone uses Fireball now because it's the strongest skill in the game. It's OP."
Player 2: "Man, that's a bunch of shit! Now there is no skill diversity at all because everyone is forced to use Fireball or suck!"
Player 3: "The actual difference between Fireball and 11 other skills is only about 5%".

Player 1: "That's a big 5%! Nerf Fireball by 5%!!!!11!!!1!1!!"
Player 2: "That 5% means that everyone is forced to use Fireball, or else they will be seriously gimping themselves by 5%."
Player 3: "You both realize that 5% of 2,000 is 100, right? 100 damage is hardly a reason to reroll your character, or call for across the board adjustments."

Player 1: "I still think it needs a nerf, or everything else needs a buff.
Player 2: "That still means that in order to get the most out of our precious characters and our precious play time we have to use Fireball, or we are just losers who don't know what we are doing."
Player 3: "Sigh... Just be happy they were able to get them all within 100 damage of each other?"

Player 1: "No."
Player 2: "No."
Player 3: "Whatever."