The Illusion of Choice

"

_StoneWall_ wrote:

anyone who is quitting based on lack of choice.....

can I have you stuff?

I dont think anyone is quitting...they dont have anywhere better to go...unless they are avid members of the FotM club....in which I think Crysis came out a few days ago and they prolly already quit.

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

jnali wrote:

That's actually an example of a bad game system.

Why? Because you can't use Whirlwind anymore. What if you WANT to use Whirlwind? Well, too bad -- it doesn't work anymore, for the reasons you said.

Which is a big part of why D3 fell apart: the game systems are weak.

-snip-

You can still use WW while out-gearing content in D3. It is subpar though. You will be rage starved. You will clear slower rather than changing up your skills. But you can choose to use it if you wish.

So when someone uses a sub-par build in Diablo 3, that is a choice, but if someone uses a sub-par build in PoE, it is not??

So there is an "illusion of choice" in Diablo 3 too then right? Why do you act like the game systems in PoE are broken because not all builds are perfectly balanced, yet in Diablo 3 you think it's totally fine?

You don't make any sense.

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

Azidonis wrote:

"

funshynebare wrote:

Nothing screams a weak game system than one where the only way to challenge yourself is to bind your hands and feet and wear a blindfold.

You do realize that many of the "huge differences" between min-max builds and "average" builds is usually pretty minimal, percentage-wise, right?

Example...

Player 1: "Everyone uses Fireball now because it's the strongest skill in the game. It's OP."
Player 2: "Man, that's a bunch of shit! Now there is no skill diversity at all because everyone is forced to use Fireball or suck!"
Player 3: "The actual difference between Fireball and 11 other skills is only about 5%".

Player 1: "That's a big 5%! Nerf Fireball by 5%!!!!11!!!1!1!!"
Player 2: "That 5% means that everyone is forced to use Fireball, or else they will be seriously gimping themselves by 5%."
Player 3: "You both realize that 5% of 2,000 is 100, right? 100 damage is hardly a reason to reroll your character, or call for across the board adjustments."

Player 1: "I still think it needs a nerf, or everything else needs a buff.
Player 2: "That still means that in order to get the most out of our precious characters and our precious play time we have to use Fireball, or we are just losers who don't know what we are doing."
Player 3: "Sigh... Just be happy they were able to get them all within 100 damage of each other?"

Player 1: "No."
Player 2: "No."
Player 3: "Whatever."

I never knew the difference between stacking HP versus armor/evasion was only a 5%, minimalistic difference.

Or that the difference between a GMP freezing pulse and a conc effect frost nova was only 5%.

You know, lots of people talk to themselves. They say you're only crazy if you talk back though.

I see what you did there.

Surely, you understand that they made HP stacking the better choice because its available to every build (except CI), right? So, if you want to go Armour/ES, you can, if you have enough HP. If you want to go straight Armour, you can, if you have enough HP. If you want to try straight Evasion, you can, if you have enough HP. Thankfully, there is quite a lot of HP to go around.

That said, everyone knows you need lots of health. So get lots of health. Were you expecting to take 9 Armour nodes, never touch the HP nodes, and be able to withstand chaos damage?

At any rate, there is noticeable disparity between survivability types, and certainly they know about it, and maybe they will decide to change something. Guess what... you will still need lots of HP.

And you cite a difference between Freezing Pulse + GMP, and Frost Nova + Concentrated Effect, but it is a bad comparison, as they have completely different Support Gems, and do completely different things. It's like comparing Ground Slam and Lightning Arrow. Come on man.

Most importantly, where's your math?

"

Axebane wrote:

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

jnali wrote:

That's actually an example of a bad game system.

Why? Because you can't use Whirlwind anymore. What if you WANT to use Whirlwind? Well, too bad -- it doesn't work anymore, for the reasons you said.

Which is a big part of why D3 fell apart: the game systems are weak.

-snip-

You can still use WW while out-gearing content in D3. It is subpar though. You will be rage starved. You will clear slower rather than changing up your skills. But you can choose to use it if you wish.

So when someone uses a sub-par build in Diablo 3, that is a choice, but if someone uses a sub-par build in PoE, it is not??

So there is an "illusion of choice" in Diablo 3 too then right? Why do you act like the game systems in PoE are broken because not all builds are perfectly balanced, yet in Diablo 3 you think it's totally fine?

You don't make any sense.

If you bothered to read the person I quoted then you'd actually understand the point I was making.

It's as you said. The illusion of choice. You can make subpar builds in D3 and use them. The person I quoted went on to say that D3 failed because of this.

Then praised PoE and the creation of subpar builds and why it's good game design.

Hence the whole cutting him off at that point.

"

Azidonis wrote:

Most importantly, where's your math?

Where's yours?

In the imaginary scenario you created?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/605432-path-of-exile/65441455

It's only a matter of time till people will find new builds that are even better than the ones everyone is playing right now. At that point everyone will reroll and play the new op builds and claim there is no variety.
People who claim stacking HP is the only viable way to play don't understand the game or more importantly don't try to understand the game.
While there might be slight balance issues overall it's not as bad as people think.
If everyone would try to actually figure out new builds instead of complaining this thread would be outdated by tomorrow because the builds people are playing today would be bad compared to the newly figured out ones.

"

Are we still arguing that the ability to make inferior choices = a wide selection of diverse builds?

That's a funny statement. You know this is true for pretty much every game? There will always be one build that is better than other builds. It's impossible to balance a game 100% because that would require a humanly impossible to achieve level of maths to make it so the numbers are even in every aspect. This would also make games pretty boring because probably everything would feel the same. Games would also have to be rebalanced every time someone figures out a new build because if that build is actually better than all the other builds the game is bad because it has no variety if you stay true to your statement.

edit: One more thing. In my opinion the biggest Illusion is actually that people think that everyone is doing nothing but stacking health.
I checked one of the most popular builds (Wand Templar) and this is the result:
Health nodes: 29
Stat nodes: 32
Other nodes: 50

Out of the none-health nodes there are 5 nodes that were used to get to health nodes. All the other health nodes picked up were on the path of the build anyway. So even if you add those nodes it's still only 34 out of 111 nodes used for health. While this might be only one build it's probably true for most builds.
Yes, people do stack health. But it's by far not the only thing they do.

"

It's only a matter of time till people will find new builds that are even better than the ones everyone is playing right now. At that point everyone will reroll and play the new op builds and claim there is no variety.
People who claim stacking HP is the only viable way to play don't understand the game or more importantly don't try to understand the game.
While there might be slight balance issues overall it's not as bad as people think.
If everyone would try to actually figure out new builds instead of complaining this thread would be outdated by tomorrow because the builds people are playing today would be bad compared to the newly figured out ones.

I think for awhile most innovative and new builds will still take advantage of Life, because most build's goals are not to find an alternative to Life nodes, but to use a particular skill they want and then make the most use of it or to come up with a playstyle they want to play. I think it's much more likely somebody will come up with an alternative to Lightning Arrow or finding a good Melee build before they will come up with a way to survive on Hardcore without picking up Life or going CI.

If i can play end game with a build, as long as i have fun and i feel at least somewhat powerful, i could care less if its the best.

I dont have e-peen envy. If a ranged caster can clear a room in 10 seconds, good for them. All i care about is if MY character can clear the room, and if i can do so without TOO much frustration.

A flaw would be if my build is constantly hitting a brick wall. If it becomes near impossible to play, thats the only way i will consider my build broken.

"

funshynebare wrote:

If you bothered to read the person I quoted then you'd actually understand the point I was making.

It's as you said. The illusion of choice. You can make subpar builds in D3 and use them. The person I quoted went on to say that D3 failed because of this.

Then praised PoE and the creation of subpar builds and why it's good game design.

Hence the whole cutting him off at that point.

Yeah, you cut me off at the part where my post started to point out how inane your argument is. Then you argued against only the section that you wanted to, which conveniently for you, was not my complete argument. In fact, it changes the direction of my post pretty significantly, and you argued against that changed direction.

That, sir, is a form of a strawman argument. Grats on your formal debate fallacy!

Here's the post:

"

jnali wrote:

That's actually an example of a bad game system.

Why? Because you can't use Whirlwind anymore. What if you WANT to use Whirlwind? Well, too bad -- it doesn't work anymore, for the reasons you said.

Which is a big part of why D3 fell apart: the game systems are weak.

Your original complaint, which I am not sure if you stand by, is that you have no choice because you have to min-max, or at least you are stuck with certain decisions if you want to min-max.

Both those claims are patently false. It's possible to play the game and have fun with a sub-par character. You won't clear as fast and you might die, but the build will work. You don't HAVE to min-max.

Also, you are not stuck with certain decisions if you want to min-max. There are several optimal builds for every class, but they are limited because we are talking about MIN-MAXING. There is no ONE uber build that everyone who is min-maxing is shoehorned into. Do a lot of those min-maxed builds involve stacking life and picking up defensive keystones? Yep. Why? Because math.

So you have compared apples to oranges here. A lot of people have refuted your claims with anecdotal examples, and now I'm throwing game theory at you. Are you willing to concede that you could possibly be off-base here?

BTW, I'm a developer. No, I don't work on, for, or in competition with GGG; I wholeheartedly endorse and enjoy their products, from at least the short time that I have been interacting with them.

There isn't an ILLUSION of choice -- you have MANY choices. If you want to min-max and you don't CARE about anything else you can do that. If you want to make a thematic build and have fun with it you can do that too. If you want to have a Witch that swings a two-handed sword from behind the safety of a Chaos Innoculated-Energy Shield you can do THAT too.

You are completely and utterly stuck on having to min-max, which is what I said and you conveniently ignored. To you the Witch with the sword is an inferior build, but to someone else they are having tons of fun laughing their ass off while their tiny little girl cleaves monsters four times her size in half.

This is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the WW Barb in D3 who can no longer WW effectively because their gear got TOO GOOD. That's not an illusion of choice or even a choice at all, unless the character goes against the whole intent of the game system (kill stuff, get gear) just to preserve the effectiveness of a skill. NOW you have the illusion of choice: use the better gear with a new skill you may not want to use or keep the old gear so you can keep spinning to winning.

That's an illusion because the core GAME SYSTEM falls apart. This isn't someone planning their character into a certain build that they enjoy, this is an unintended consequence (don't even TRY to convince me that the game designers actually intended to deprecate WW at a certain gear level; I will point and laugh at you).

I wouldn't even care about this if it wasn't for the fact that people like you just LOVE to shout your misinformation until you drag a game down or discourage people from playing. But you are all BS, and someone needs to drag YOU down from your soapbox shouting and bludgeon you with facts and information.

TL;DR: Stop it; stop it; stop it! Please make him stop! He's making me angry, and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry!