The Illusion of Choice

I just want to point out that the guy who called bullshit on me and requested me to post never came back and commented after I posted my build and gear. Did I prove him wrong or did he think my shit sucked too much to comment on?

"

Inkarnit wrote:

I just want to point out that the guy who called bullshit on me and requested me to post never came back and commented after I posted my build and gear. Did I prove him wrong or did he think my shit sucked too much to comment on?

in his mind....probably the latter. You know how these elitist pricks are. They think unless you use their builds, you suck. Then they feel the need to have more OP build to chose from.

Though he could have missed the post...I dont know.

"

jnali wrote:

Posting in a thread about people angry at having to min-max to be a min-max character.

Completely wrong.

I enjoy min/maxing. What I don't enjoy is after playing this game hardcore for a few weeks, it's become painstakingly clear that the choices to be made when min/maxing are obvious.

HP trumping all, damage nodes being useless, certain skills providing more EHP than the passive nodes.

Min/Maxing is quite....well....simple. There are no hard choices to make.

Which is disheartening for a game with such a massive skill tree.

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

jnali wrote:

Posting in a thread about people angry at having to min-max to be a min-max character.

Completely wrong.

I enjoy min/maxing. What I don't enjoy is after playing this game hardcore for a few weeks, it's become painstakingly clear that the choices to be made when min/maxing are obvious.

HP trumping all, damage nodes being useless, certain skills providing more EHP than the passive nodes.

Min/Maxing is quite....well....simple. There are no hard choices to make.

Which is disheartening for a game with such a massive skill tree.

I already went over the idea of character builds in all ARPGs...do I need to do it again? You want a min max char, you are only ever going to have to chose from like 2-3 builds. They do this because those builds are also considered OP, and we all know the communities views on OP builds. I mean look at the CC/WW build from Wizzys in D3. Do you remember the Chain Sorcs from D2? Yeah. In a game about numbers, there will always be a min max char/build. But there will always be very few. Because if EVERY build was min/max, or OP, then the game would NOT be a challenge and thus would not be fun.

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

jnali wrote:

Posting in a thread about people angry at having to min-max to be a min-max character.

Completely wrong.

I enjoy min/maxing. What I don't enjoy is after playing this game hardcore for a few weeks, it's become painstakingly clear that the choices to be made when min/maxing are obvious.

HP trumping all, damage nodes being useless, certain skills providing more EHP than the passive nodes.

Min/Maxing is quite....well....simple. There are no hard choices to make.

Which is disheartening for a game with such a massive skill tree.

You are upset that min-maxing is min-maxing.

Min-maxing is never hard. It's a simple math analysis of the game systems that outputs the most effective character.

"Hard" is building a character that does something strange and is still effective.

Again: you are upset that min-maxing is min-maxing. That's just about the silliest thing in the world.

For the sake of argument: show me a game where min-maxing is "hard".

"

Zalm wrote:

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

jnali wrote:

Posting in a thread about people angry at having to min-max to be a min-max character.

Completely wrong.

I enjoy min/maxing. What I don't enjoy is after playing this game hardcore for a few weeks, it's become painstakingly clear that the choices to be made when min/maxing are obvious.

HP trumping all, damage nodes being useless, certain skills providing more EHP than the passive nodes.

Min/Maxing is quite....well....simple. There are no hard choices to make.

Which is disheartening for a game with such a massive skill tree.

I already went over the idea of character builds in all ARPGs...do I need to do it again? You want a min max char, you are only ever going to have to chose from like 2-3 builds. They do this because those builds are also considered OP, and we all know the communities views on OP builds. I mean look at the CC/WW build from Wizzys in D3. Do you remember the Chain Sorcs from D2? Yeah. In a game about numbers, there will always be a min max char/build. But there will always be very few. Because if EVERY build was min/max, or OP, then the game would NOT be a challenge and thus would not be fun.

Look at barbs in D3. Lots of them run WW still. However, as you progress in gear, WW becomes impossible to use unless you drastically scale up in MP levels because you kill too quickly to gain rage.

So you have to change your build. For Ubers, you don't even use WW.

This is an example of gear and encounters changing how you play your character. It's also an example of how gaining power forces you to change your build when doing exp runs.

Tempest Rush. Very unique skill. Very poor choice to use in most situations. Unless you have amazing gear and an amazing 2H weapon. Then TR becomes one of the fastest speed clearing builds in the game.

In conjuration with Zalm's excellent reply regarding build diversity in ARPGs, I'd like to add this question for the OP: What ARPG has more viable build diversity than PoE?

I'm not insinuating that PoE is perfect with regards to this matter, although I will say that with a bit of creativity and skill, you can avoid being chained to the requirements that was listed in the original post. As an example, I recently played a double flame totem + fire trap, triple curse, minion templar, with LMP/Life leech/Minion damage spectres, using Searing Touch. I used Enfeeble, Temporal Chains and my minions as defense, coupled with smart play. I reached Piety on merciless with ease, rocking 1500 hp and 800 ES, and negative resistances, but died due to recklessness and a chunk of lag.

Would it have been the strongest build ever? No. But if you strive for the absolutely strongest build, then you are limited to just 1, no matter the game. Can you even determine what the strongest build in PoE is? .. If you find yourself struggling to answer, then it might be because there is nothing that is clearly stronger than the rest, which is an indication that some diversity is to be found, even at top level.

"

jnali wrote:

"

funshynebare wrote:

"

jnali wrote:

Posting in a thread about people angry at having to min-max to be a min-max character.

Completely wrong.

I enjoy min/maxing. What I don't enjoy is after playing this game hardcore for a few weeks, it's become painstakingly clear that the choices to be made when min/maxing are obvious.

HP trumping all, damage nodes being useless, certain skills providing more EHP than the passive nodes.

Min/Maxing is quite....well....simple. There are no hard choices to make.

Which is disheartening for a game with such a massive skill tree.

You are upset that min-maxing is min-maxing.

Min-maxing is never hard. It's a simple math analysis of the game systems that outputs the most effective character.

"Hard" is building a character that does something strange and is still effective.

Again: you are upset that min-maxing is min-maxing. That's just about the silliest thing in the world.

For the sake of argument: show me a game where min-maxing is "hard".

See

"

Mysterial wrote:

I think the part you are having trouble understanding is that if making the "right" build choices beforehand makes the game easy, then the supposed "challenge" is invalidated. Many people don't like the idea of having to handicap themselves to make the game challenging, nor do they like finding out an entire supposedly supported playstyle inherently makes the game much more difficult relative to people who chose differently simply out of personal preference and not superior planning or skill.

"

funshynebare wrote:

Look at barbs in D3. Lots of them run WW still. However, as you progress in gear, WW becomes impossible to use unless you drastically scale up in MP levels because you kill too quickly to gain rage.

So you have to change your build. For Ubers, you don't even use WW.

This is an example of gear and encounters changing how you play your character. It's also an example of how gaining power forces you to change your build when doing exp runs.

I prefer to stop this discussion with you now. Your comparing a pile of shit to a diamond in the rough. Done.

"

Zalm wrote:

"

funshynebare wrote:

Look at barbs in D3. Lots of them run WW still. However, as you progress in gear, WW becomes impossible to use unless you drastically scale up in MP levels because you kill too quickly to gain rage.

So you have to change your build. For Ubers, you don't even use WW.

This is an example of gear and encounters changing how you play your character. It's also an example of how gaining power forces you to change your build when doing exp runs.

I prefer to stop this discussion with you now. Your comparing a pile of shit to a diamond in the rough. Done.

You ask me to list you a game where you're linked to a certain build to min/max.

I give you a game where your character changes based on gear/encounters.

But because it's Diablo you instantly ignore it.

But we both agree. This game is for the ignorant, dgaf, just play to play players. Was just hoping it would have been more than something that lasted a few weeks.