life and ES changes - feedback

They more likely will have ( with such investment ) 7k5 life, with 40k armour and possibly some evasion + high regen to back it up ( which is much better than 8k life + regen ).

Without the near to gear for stun immunity, needing shock immunity in some situations or being dependant on flasks for freeze immunity ( if not Dream fargment ).

It's easy to forget some parameters in the balance, I know, but those are still there, and are significant, now I never said that ES was not over powered, it needs a nerf.
Is it too much now ? maybe not ..... maybe, the future might tell us.



But anyway, that's not the point, the point is that many are pretending that 20k is something that needs little investment.
This is not true at all.

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Fruz wrote:

But anyway, that's not the point, the point is that many are pretending that 20k is something that needs little investment.
This is not true at all.

Certain builds have it, it's same statement as most ppl saying about life that 7k is doable without problem, and yet it is not - comparable in terms of investment will be 10-12k ES and 5-6k life AFTER 3.0.

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Painkiler1 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

But anyway, that's not the point, the point is that many are pretending that 20k is something that needs little investment.
This is not true at all.

Certain builds have it

Show me a build that have little investment and 20k ES then, by all means please do it.


And going over 6k life isn't very difficult, it needs a significant life nodes investment, but all good life builds do this anyway because it's the best way to build a life character at the moment, and it does not need BiS gear.
Feel free to prove me wrong if you can.

"

Fruz wrote:

And there is the bad faith, I am surprised nobody did it before.
Some of those things were broken, and they are still playable now.
Vaal only based build never was a thing intended in the first place, you could compare it to a bug exploit in that sense.
CoC discharge is still playable, it's less broken only.
And it will still be after the patch.

OH SNAP, you won't just be able to shield charge and see everything die the moment you reach destination, clering strand in 30 sec with it, too bad, what a loss !
....


But CoC discharge is still a thing, and it will still be after the patch if you build for it (hint : you can actually build it on a life character, and likely still on a ES char too ).
You can still play chaos spark too, it's still there, you it's still possible to make a good build with it.
Will it be completely broken ? likely not, that's a good thing.

Respectfully Fruz, looking at your characters you have never even played CoC Discharge. So your armchair theorycrafting on why it will still works is absolutely idiotic.

Unless you've played a build, please don't talk about what it can and can't accomplish.

CoC Discharge will not be able to tank bosses above T10 anymore without instant leech. I'm not crying about it...it is what it is and GGG has said many times that they "prefer discharge to be play self-casted".

But please don't talk out of your ass unless you've played it. I have played a CoC discharge life character. It doesn't not play as good as a CI character currently. The problem being is that pure cyclone (especially with axes like Ngahamu's) is way better.

And just so you know, the clearing of a map will not be an issue. You still will be able to shield charge through mobs just fine...it is the boss (where sustained fights will be mandatory) that kills you. The trickster variant will probably be more popular now because of the 250 es bonus (which will pretty much be mandatory to be in melee range).

How can anyone still say after all these nerfs that CoC discharge is broken??? Have you not seen the vaal fireball stupidity that is plaguing this league's meta? Have you not seen HoWA and it's ability to delete bosses? The new meta is way more destructive than discharge was in it's pre-nerfed form.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about, sorry.

I did play a bit CoC one one char or two, I did get bored though.
I played some CwC discharge on another char also as an example, really not speced for it : it was still pretty damn strong given the non investment in it, it was kinda fun but without the discharge skin I didn't like the graphical effects from it much and eventually got bored.

And I have absolutely no doubt that I could make CoC works with many different setups without troubles, and with discharge if I wanted to (I would need to invest into a voll's devotion, and since I don't particularly want to do that .... little point).


Have you every considered that bosses may not be supposed to just be facetanked and watched melting ?

Yes, CoC discharge is weaker against bosses if you cannot just facetanked them, but then what is the actually weakness of it if you facetank them anyway ?
Have you played builds that don't just facetank everything without carrying about incoming damage recently ?
How long exactly last those bosses that you won't be able to facetank in 3.0.0 ? 5 sec ? 10 sec ?
Do you know that some spend several minutes in some boss fights and still end up killing the thing ???


CoC discharge was broken, I didn't say that it was still this way ( I did way that it was "less broken", I should have been clearer about this, that's my bad ), it's still definitely playable when many are pretending that it's dead and buried.


And yeah, I am aware that HowA is stupid atm, still we still people claiming otherwise here ...
But it's not the point, I hope that GGG will do something about it, but .... it isn't my point here.

"

Fruz wrote:

Have you every considered that bosses may not be supposed to just be facetanked and watched melting ?

Yes, CoC discharge is weaker against bosses if you cannot just facetanked them, but then what is the actually weakness of it if you facetank them anyway ?
Have you played builds that don't just facetank everything without carrying about incoming damage recently ?
How long exactly last those bosses that you won't be able to facetank in 3.0.0 ? 5 sec ? 10 sec ?
Do you know that some spend several minutes in some boss fights and still end up killing the thing ???

So you want players that depend on cyclone for damage to kite? You understand that you don't shield charge the boss to death right? You aren't kiting around and charging in with impeccable mechanics.

YOU HAVE TO TANK A LITTLE BIT. Yes you might have to back up every once in while when you take a large hit...but in this case you can not leech big hits back. You will be kiting so much that the build is effectively dead.

Really what all of this boils down to is:

ES = ranged or passive playstyles (traps,totems)
Life = Melee or closed ranged combat.

The decision is now BINARY. There is no need to try and be creative to make a Melee CI character because eventually you will die. Maybe softcore can still afford quirky experiments (which i have the luxory to experience) but for players that build for defense (softcore or hardcore) there is no point to even bother creating a melee/close-ranged CI character. YOU WILL DIE...where as a life, insta-leech, insta-pot character will survive 9 out of 10 times.

I'm tired of players for little to no experience with builds talk like they know what the fuck they are talking about. I'm sorry unless you have played the build please don't act like some sort of expert.

I don't sit here talking about spectre builds or golem builds or any of that shit because I have never truly tried to play one. It would be stupid of me.

STOP BEING A YOUTUBE/TWITCH, ARMCHAIR REDDIT BALANCER. YOU GUYS ARE KILLING THIS GAME.

"

CoC Discharge will not be able to tank bosses above T10 anymore without instant leech. I'm not crying about it...it is what it is and GGG has said many times that they "prefer discharge to be play self-casted".

A big issue I see with the removal of VP is that for ES builds there is not much of a possibility to actually get some leech improvements. Most of the leech improving nodes are down in the bottom and some are with the claws. So overall taking away Instant Leech should result in some leech nodes, maybe just behind GR, that way you would actually be able to do some better leeching, because you at least still have a better pool, which does help leeching.

And honestly if a life based build can tank T10 bosses without VP, a CoC build should be able to as well. It is just the investment he now has to take and it is hard to score some of those nodes. Soul Raker is basically the only node giving some leech improvements in the area a CoC discharge build will go. And that will likely be an issue, because there are also rarely any items providing help. The 20% limit is not as big of a deal, because he still has a higher buffer and should be able to outleech a life based build anyway, but not getting a few of those nodes hurts, because those nodes are what improves single target leech (where it would be hard to get enough instances to reach the 20% cap for a CoC build nowadays).

Also yeah Trickster should be a lot better now because Trickster actually improves your recovery and leech is a form of recovery. It only needs a way to affect the enemy with damage over time (which should not be hard with an ignite maybe), but again is likely limited in most boss fights.

The Ascendant could actually be a decent choice to secure some leech help, but again I don't think that too much will happen in certain directions. CoC Discharge will likely be harmed more by their increasing intent to turn to discharge into a selfcast skill, not so much by the ES/Life changes.

"

And going over 6k life isn't very difficult, it needs a significant life nodes investment, but all good life builds do this anyway because it's the best way to build a life character at the moment, and it does not need BiS gear.
Feel free to prove me wrong if you can.

Well it is not too hard to proof that one in either direction. Let's just assume 250% increased Life, which is a hefty amount and requires jewels, which already is likely a bit of a pain unless you just roll blue ones, because those jewels are expensive if you want anything good on them. So we need about 1715 base HP for that. 1118 Life is what a character at lvl90 has. So he needs another 600 to reach that. We are not counting a shield, because not all builds can use it and without that we have 8 Slots that we can use for HP, because weapons usually provide none. Considering a low Strength build we might end up with just 100 HP from their and we get about 100 other flat sources (Oak, some Major nodes etc.) So we need 400 HP which is 50 per item, that is managable.

But then again we have to look at how easy it is to get 250% inc. HP. Hint... not always that easy. Many builds might have to run with just 200% and there the math gets a bit trickier.

In that case you need 2000 Base HP, which means you need to get about 900 in addition. This means, since you will again get those 200 you got above from Strength and Major nodes or Oak, that you have to get almost 700 from your gear. that is about 85 per piece and that is not that easy. It means not using a single item not providing HP basically removing the option to use many uniques.

So no, 6.000 HP is not easy for all Life builds, mostly builds on the right or top side will struggle because they have less HP nodes and also less Strength. Of course the new item mods might change that but this again means having well rolled items, because you still want your items to provide armor or evasion and you also want them to give resistances. Not that much different to

"

Really what all of this boils down to is:

ES = ranged or passive playstyles (traps,totems)
Life = Melee or closed ranged combat.

And this is usual problem with GGG's "balancing", that trying to make life of top meta builds a little, they virtually wiped out the whole range of, often unique, non-meta builds.

Just wiped non-VP, regen/recharge close combat, slow killing ES builds for casual non-mirror-grade players. They will just not survive end-game content. Simple like that. And saying that I would need to invest more in defense is just laughable, considering from where top-tree build can take defences.

And sorry, I don't treat T9-T10 maps as "end game".

But whatever, back to life. lol ;)

"

So you want players that depend on cyclone for damage to kite? You understand that you don't shield charge the boss to death right? You aren't kiting around and charging in with impeccable mechanics.

YOU HAVE TO TANK A LITTLE BIT. Yes you might have to back up every once in while when you take a large hit...but in this case you can not leech big hits back. You will be kiting so much that the build is effectively dead.

Really what all of this boils down to is:

ES = ranged or passive playstyles (traps,totems)
Life = Melee or closed ranged combat.

The decision is now BINARY. There is no need to try and be creative to make a Melee CI character because eventually you will die. Maybe softcore can still afford quirky experiments (which i have the luxory to experience) but for players that build for defense (softcore or hardcore) there is no point to even bother creating a melee/close-ranged CI character. YOU WILL DIE...where as a life, insta-leech, insta-pot character will survive 9 out of 10 times.

I'm tired of players for little to no experience with builds talk like they know what the fuck they are talking about. I'm sorry unless you have played the build please don't act like some sort of expert.

I don't sit here talking about spectre builds or golem builds or any of that shit because I have never truly tried to play one. It would be stupid of me.

STOP BEING A YOUTUBE/TWITCH, ARMCHAIR REDDIT BALANCER. YOU GUYS ARE KILLING THIS GAME.

Back up when it gets dangerous, to temporize ?
Yeah, that should be a much more present part of the game, and hell yes, I wish most people had to go through that to some extend instead of just brainlessly facetanking most things.
You can kite after a big hit and gets some health back, and destroy trash mobs to refill your flask, or if you are ES based, pop a decoy somewhere (or pop a smokemine) and get to safety for 2 seconds before you ES recharges.

And YES, that would be a good thing for the game, hell yes.
I agree that the games needs somewhat lower spike damages for it to be more viable though, we only know a part of GGG's plan here.
ES will still have the advantage of a bigger buffer, and being in a part of the three with higher damage scaling ( usually ), two things that are favoring leech a lot.

Life favoring melees and ES favoring range isn't anything special, evasion is already favoring ranges over melees, and that's what make building different things interesting.
There always is the possibility to go out of those ways and make builds that goes to other places, and that's a really good things, but should ES and Life have the exact same pros and cons ?
NO
It's a definite, simple and easy : NO.


You have never even reached level 60 as a hardcore character, and then you come and start a silly "you don't know what you're talking about" argument while trying to bring hardcore in ???
...
Holy crap that is so ironic, then let me throw at you what you just tried to fallaciously throw at me :

"

I'm tired of players for little to no experience with builds talk like they know what the fuck they are talking about. I'm sorry unless you have played the build please don't act like some sort of expert.

Because you have no experience with hardcore characters/builds here, none.

YOU are killing this game because you do not want it to actually have some difficulty.

"

Emphasy wrote:

So no, 6.000 HP is not easy for all Life builds, mostly builds on the right or top side will struggle because they have less HP nodes and also less Strength. Of course the new item mods might change that but this again means having well rolled items, because you still want your items to provide armor or evasion and you also want them to give resistances. Not that much different to

Some nodes gives flat life, some items gives %inc life, many items can also give strength which gives life.
6k isn't very difficult, it's a correct amount.

7k+ that has been mentioned many times is a different story already.
As an example, my HC ranger has 6k life with only 200 strength and 3 items with 0 life on them ( neither strength ).
The other life rolls on my gear are correct, but not amazing.

I think we might just have a barrier in communication. So I will end the conversation with you. I am not claiming hardcore experience.

I am not even talking about playing hardcore or claiming to know anything about hardcore balance. YOU HAVE NEVER PLAYED A COC CHARACTER SO STFU ABOUT IT. Is that clear enough? Where did I talk about hardcore extensively? I mentioned it in CONTEXT with building defensively. Our failure to be on the same plane of the english language is causing tension, so I will end the conversation on this last note:



Enjoy your "harder" game.

Newsflash: This is primarily a PvE single-player game where people irrationally profess and obsess over balance.

It is the single most idiotic ideal that seems to only preside in PvE communities.

ARPGs ability to trivialize content has been present since the beginning of the genre. You don't outplay content.. you outgear it. That is the WHOLE POINT. That's why we grind for loot. Not any loot but he BEST loot. So we can outgear content. That is the basic facts of ARPGs historically.

You can say that there is no skill in playing characters, but the skill comes in creating the synergies to BUILD the character in the first place not necessarily play it.

I still will reside to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about...or if you do...then I simply can't understand your viewpoint...which is also fine.

Have a great day! :)