life and ES changes - feedback

"

Fruz wrote:

- A change that would kill a whole type of builds (that was intended by GGG ideally) is likely terrible for the game balance.

And such a change would definitely do that, it's not a nerf, it's plain simply removing the possibility of such building such character (couple with the ES nerfs).

"

sidtherat wrote:

these hybrid rolls will have approximately 0 effect. the real deal is instant leech being life only.

people are not using ar and ev because their fav streamers fell into 'local minima' just like any neural network. the learning process went wrong and without restart stuff wont change.

problem is. you throw 8-9 k life pools as if it easy to reach such values. it isnt. these values require some meta build and very strong weapons to simply take almost nothing but life nodes. and belly or koams.

"

Painkiler1 wrote:

You say what? 8-9k life can compete with 15k ES? You know, how much u have to sacrifice in passives to get 8-9k life as a regular build? Currently, ES builds can get 20k ES with half of investment into passives like 8-9k builds doing, so after nerf they will be around 12-13k, still, with half of passive point used on life nodes by life builds. If you sucks at getting high pool of ES don't blame life builds then - because considering ur "investment" you will be at best with 6k life after 3.0.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

these hybrid rolls will have approximately 0 effect. the real deal is instant leech being life only.

people are not using ar and ev because their fav streamers fell into 'local minima' just like any neural network. the learning process went wrong and without restart stuff wont change.

problem is. you throw 8-9 k life pools as if it easy to reach such values. it isnt. these values require some meta build and very strong weapons to simply take almost nothing but life nodes. and belly or koams.

I think ur dreaming if u reckon ppl are gonna flock to armour and evasion now. They will take the hybrid roll on all their gear along with a strength suffix, ignore ar and ev the same way they do now because theyre already building like that and now they have even more reason to ignore good defense rolls in 3.0 when its competing with pure life. Im already maxing life on everything, I use coral rings as standard on every life build, I get close to top rolled life on every bit of gear I can get it on, I ignore a lot of uniques with no life and Im a defense stacker. I like defense, and even I wont stack it at the expense of life.

People will get double life rolls on all slots it comes on and push life totals as far as they can push them, that will be the meta.

"

Painkiler1 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

If people could stop speaking about 20k ES with little investment, and on top of that as if it was a normal and very banal thing ..............

://

Stop just repeating everything you see on the internet ffs.

Lol, you can get it currently fairly easy, with 50-70 points invested into tree with most ES-based ascendancies. You just need very well rolled gear. Check life builds what they need to get atleast 9k life, then speak about low q.q 15-20k es what ES builds can get.

"

tmaciak wrote:

And BTW getting 20K ES is not easy, you have to have top ES rolls everywhere and still invest shitload skillpoints into ES %.

"

CoC Discharge, vaal groundslam, chaos conversion spark, Vaal molten shell... I mean the list is insane of builds completely ruined in the name of balance. Why is this different?

Oh... and on a side note.

Please allow of moment of silence as a hommage to CoC Discharge. The upcoming Vaal Pact changes will finally put my favorite build to rest.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

I dont understand if life can still do vp why es cant do vp? what is the point of that? what does this fix?

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

ya this instant leech stuff, why are they keeping it for life builds? Theyre not changing that meta, you can sit there with a ci build having 15kes and instantly leeching back... truth is people dont even do that, they sit there with 10-12k es and leech it back because they jam it all into damage, people with 950es chests + 550 shields + 500 hats with % crafts everywhere are still running around with 10k es a lot of the time, mirror level gear sets.

Thing is, watch the es pool on a build like that when they facetank stuff like the shaper beam, theyre not losing more than about 2-4k es. I already can hit 7k life on a coil crit dagger ranger who goes to shadow and duelist while being full on dagger crit melee, phase acro etc. Just stick vaal pact on a build like that and youll be able to do all the facetanking the current 10-12k es dagger builds are doing when it comes to the top bosses.

How does this help anything? why havent they actually dealt with it?

I dont understand if life can still do vp why es cant do vp? what is the point of that? what does this fix?

the only thing theyre trying to fix is forcing people to stop playing ci all together and just play life, that seems to be the only goal, not to actually address problematic mechanics, not to crub the cheese, simply to stop people playing ci builds. Thats not even something that should be fixed, there should be balance between life and es, thats balance, which theyre not doing, this is not balance this is creating a gross imbalance between life and es in favour of life. What needs fixed is whats broken and thats holding down a button and just standing there to facetank stuff that should not be facetanked.

absolutely retarded, the devs are fucking clueless and should be ashamed of themselves imo.

"

sidtherat wrote:

1) almost all stuff i suggested (and was attacked for by certain forum goers) has been implemented EXCEPT one.


A) ES changes
TL;DR: some players will have to learn to play this game. and for some it might be too big of a task. current (2.6) game is so braindead easy when abusing ES/leech that it cannot be any easier..

removal of instant leech:
(i hope it is 100% removal. not some typical 'we nerf it, but at the same time add a rare unique that quickly becomes mandatory' fiasco.)
but if ES can no longer - no matter the method - instantly leech life, then players will have to think (wow!) about reflect (if it is not removed.. i fear they will remove reflect entirely) and about offence/defence balance for the first time since forever

this should end a reign of clown-fiesta builds that used ONLY leech as a defense. this is good. this will slow the clear speed meta (because people will now have to invest something into defences as well) while providing a choice: clear fast and die often or clear slower and die rarely.

will everyone play totems/mines/traps/minions? maybe. or maybe not. these playstyles each come with distinct 'meh' attached to them

gutting the ES numbers:
the technicalities are convoluted and take most of the post length to be over with. but the end result is interesting
- 'more' multiplier on CI - gone. good change.
- cutting affixes. sad about the 1000ES (And $..) chests in standard tho. but it is nice something has been done despite it being (yet again) a mouthfull to repeat. that internal system surely doesnt take changes good
- %ES ring craft. good riddance. who let this idiocy persist for so long? WHO?
- discipline.. not really needed

one thing that is missing is INT %ES scaling. this one is too strong (both compared to DEX/STR and in itself)


will these changes make people 'quit' (game, ES or both)? for some - maybe. they are so used to right-click to victory that any form of challenge will be considered unfair

GGG - it took you TOO LONG for this. significant part of the playerbase takes current deplorable state of the game as the best one. conditioned playerbase is very difficult to appease after change so huge like this one


Elephant in the room:
I have a standard ES character. 9k ES or something like that. No Leech. and i still feel safer than any life build ive ever played. Once people realise how strong the 'faster start of ES recharge is' we will see return to ES meta. Occultists + FSOESR are incredibly strong and while ES change will hurt im still confident that this char will remain very very strong

with proper items and more though put into it i think i can keep current ES level with 3.0 scaling and still be very safe thanks to faster recharge speeds.

ES is not dead, far from it (except for a bunch that will knee jerk react and wait for new guides to copy)



B) life changes.

these seems half-baked. im hoping there will be further adjustments

1) will a CHANCE to make
+life (mandatory)
+flat defense (mandatory)
+flat life/defense
+2 res
+5% phys reduction

make me think about not picking Belly if i want to make a decent life build?

NO. 30%+ increased life is worth more than these (with current life tree and scaling ofc). even being immune to phys is rather unimpressive in 'spells everywhere meta'


there is also a huge problem
chest to make sense currently needs LIFE and both Flat Defence AND %Defense rolls. all prefixes.

making me to choose flat life/defense roll OR one of the abovementioned defense duo makes the entire change irrelevant. i cannot see myself ever picking this new hybrid roll on anything but boots and maybe gloves.
helmet? no. too much defences lost for 30 flat life..
chest or shield? HELL NO. too much defences lost for pesky life increase

all that is left is pair of boots
+life
+life/defences
+MS
+3 res

these will be damn expensive and rare


In short i do not forsee a huge popularity of these rolls on endgame equippment. AR and EV as unappealing as they are (compared to ES) are still rather good and asking players to pick these OR +life (that life builds desperately need) is rather weird way of fixing things. Nerfing already unappealing AR or EV? Really? There wasnt any other way? Like adding +life to high end base items? what is wrong with Glorious Plate giving +40 flat life on a white base? This current proposal is DoA..


Life rare chests will still remain sub-par to Belly/Koams just because all the fluff is irrelevant compared to massive life buffer increases these two items provide. It is a result of a 'balance' this game has: spike damage > all. So people gear for spikes and that means buffer first, mitigation later. Because you can always meet a threat that deals damage your character cannot defend against.

Popularity of rare chest essence crafts should be proof enough that life-based rare options really cannot compete with uniques and bit of fluff cannot solve the fundamental problem - the balance of this game forces people into buffer-first gearing



oh - and keeping instant leech to life builds is a rather desperate way of making people actually play life builds :) just kill instant leech. kill it with fire..

"

Vaal only based build never was a thing intended in the first place, you could compare it to a bug exploit in that sense.

"

Fhark wrote:

"

Vaal only based build never was a thing intended in the first place, you could compare it to a bug exploit in that sense.

while i personally would remove all the vaal skill jewels from the game its hard to call it a bug when vaal skill chaining has been in the game for nearly 2 years and ggg have done nothing aside from minor balance around it.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Painkiler1 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

If people could stop speaking about 20k ES with little investment, and on top of that as if it was a normal and very banal thing ..............

://

Stop just repeating everything you see on the internet ffs.

Lol, you can get it currently fairly easy, with 50-70 points invested into tree with most ES-based ascendancies. You just need very well rolled gear. Check life builds what they need to get atleast 9k life, then speak about low q.q 15-20k es what ES builds can get.

I bolded the parts that mattered.