The Son of God:

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

"

Kamchatka wrote:

And your posted numbers on Christianity prove my point: The vast majority of Christians are catholic & Orthodox. Approximately 2/3 Catholic/Orthodox, about 1/3 Protestant.

You lumped two different denominations into one. And both of those denominations really take church membership seriously. Non-denominational churches don't do that sort of rigid membership tracking, let alone not all non-denominationals even have a home church, which is why Protestants are shown there as up to 800 million to the 1.2 billion Catholics. That 800 million number would be much higher. Myself, including most of the people I know, are not "members" of any church, but still consider themselves non-denominational Christians.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Faith alone ( and salvation assurance for that matter) is a dying concept

God's words in the Bible are not a "dying concept". While Jesus was on Earth in the flesh, there was no other "requirement" for salvation. Churches argue over man-made constructs, but "faith alone" is the only one proven in the Bible.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

And maybe I should not use the term sects for Protestant denominations, I apologize, but sects is definitely correct when speaking of Protestant groups such as the Rob Bell's Church of mars, and Mike Murdock's Wisdom Foundation.

Thank you, I appreciate that. Yes, there are Christian cults out there. I know, I was in one for a year until I woke up and understood what was going on around me.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Edit: and add #5 for Salvation: A Christian cannot hold grudges against those who seek forgiveness, or God will withdraw his forgiveness from you, IE you will go to hell.

Bible quotes or it's just man-made, sorry. Any sin will be forgiven in less than the blink of an eye, provided the sinner seeks that forgiveness. And that element of faith is all that's required for salvation. At least that's my belief from in and out of multiple denominations and reading/studying the Bible from cover to cover. The only sin that would deny salvation is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31). But that's resisting the Holy Spirit and not seeking forgiveness, so it's impossible to perform this blasphemy if you're seeking forgiveness for all of your sins.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

So everything in the Bible that states if you do this, or do not do this you will/will not go to heaven/hell should just be ignored or written off as hyperbole? and faith alone saves. I find that idea absurd.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Catholic/Orthodox churches teach on salvation, read the entire Bible, and take note of every statement made by Jesus and his disciples about judgement, and going to heaven/hell ect, that is what we believe.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

You will quickly find faith alone does not save.

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

"

Kamchatka wrote:

So everything in the Bible that states if you do this, or do not do this you will/will not go to heaven/hell should just be ignored or written off as hyperbole? and faith alone saves. I find that idea absurd.

Please quote those from the Bible. The only requirement ever recorded in the Bible is in the example of the thief on the cross accepting Christ as his savior in Matthew 27, Mark 15, and Luke 23...

"And there was also a superscription over him, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors that were hanged railed on him, saying, Art not thou the Christ? Save thyself and us. But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

Churches and theologians argue about this salvation dilemma all the time. It's an OLD argument, and hasn't been resolved, which is one of many reasons why we have different churches among the Christian faith. Many who support baptism as a requirement for salvation argue about concepts surrounding this situation. Example: perhaps the thief was already baptized, and we as the reader do not know that? Regardless of the argument, this one example shows that a sinner accepted Christ and repented at the last minute before his death, and was promised he'd be welcomed into Paradise.

When it comes to the Bible, it's dangerous to extrapolate anything beyond what was written. And at the same time, Christians can't just take books like Revelation at literal, face value. This becomes a narrow path to walk in order to truly understand Christianity. And that's why we have faith and the Holy Spirit. Without that, we'd be completely lost. And this is where "faith alone" comes into play: as a Christian, if you have faith and a relationship with God, you already know if you're saved or not. You don't need a church or religious structure to dictate whether or not you meet the "requirements", because you're already in commune with Christ. However, that's where the Catholic church and others disagree, because they don't believe it's possible for a regular believer to have such a communion on their own.

At any rate, all of these exercises in theology cannot trump the faith of any single believer. If you are Christian and believe you have been saved, you are by all intents and purposes saved. No one can tell you otherwise except God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is the freedom of being a Christian.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Catholic/Orthodox churches teach on salvation, read the entire Bible, and take note of every statement made by Jesus and his disciples about judgement, and going to heaven/hell ect, that is what we believe.

I have already read, researched, understood, and even experienced that. My wife is Catholic and I've taken her to her Catholic church many times. The general theme is that you must be baptized in the Catholic church, confirmed in the Catholic church, believe in the trinity, attend services, be repentant and confess to your priest regularly (after you've sinned, and thus seek forgiveness), perform the good works of a Catholic, and then may be if you're lucky you'll get into Heaven or at least Purgatory in order to redeem yourself a second time.

Yeah, to me Catholicism is a mess of man-made rituals that only have meaning if you truly believe in them, and even then it's a no-win black hole that creates an endless cycle of guilt and fear. If you're perpetually feeling a heavy burden of guilt, then Christ is NOT your savior. I appreciate many of the Catholic teachings as they pertain to morality, repentance, and belief in God, but am repulsed by the man-made rituals and revoke of basic Christian rights to commune directly with God and seek forgiveness from Him.

But regardless of that, the requirements for salvation in the Catholic church can be broken down into three categories, as I've stated all along: baptism, faith, and good works. "Baptism" would include confirmation, "faith" is accepting Christ as your savior (and performing repentance), and "good works" is church attendance, actively avoiding sin, and doing other various good deeds for the church and your community. I think the biggest problem you have with my three categories is lumping other things into there (just like I had a problem with you lumping Catholicism and Orthodoxy). From me, there is no argument that each requirement of salvation I've stated has many bits and pieces involved, and each church can reference and handle those bits from a different viewpoint.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

You will quickly find faith alone does not save.

Then that is your belief, not mine.

Personally, I have been baptized... twice. One time as a baby, which is meaningless to me, and once as an adult, which was an expression of my belief, not a requirement of my salvation. My faith is strong enough to declare that I know my salvation is secured with Christ, and that my name has been written into the book of Heaven (symbolically or literally, only God knows). I can state that now with complete confidence, not by my own accord, but with God's strength as I have already given up that burden to Christ. Can you say the same as a result of your relationship with God? Or are you relying upon what other people and a church tells you is right? The Bible, in any translation, in any version, gives you everything you need on your own. No other individual or organization can add obstacles in your path to God, nor strip you of your commune with God, unless you let them do so.

That is what it means to be free in Christ.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

First thing, your understanding of the Catholic church is flawed, not your fault though, it happens.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

If you choose to ignore almost everything Jesus and his disciples taught on going to heaven or hell, and focus on just a few passages, that is your choice, I cannot force you to read, and believe the entire Bible.

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

"

Kamchatka wrote:

First thing, your understanding of the Catholic church is flawed, not your fault though, it happens.

Feel free to enlighten us then. ;-) Is there a requirement I forgot?

"

Kamchatka wrote:

If you choose to ignore almost everything Jesus and his disciples taught on going to heaven or hell, and focus on just a few passages, that is your choice, I cannot force you to read, and believe the entire Bible.

It's not just "a few passages", it's in context over all of the New Testament. Those few passages are the only example where salvation is proven. Beyond that it's all the teachings of Jesus, His words, and His father's judgements, not a neatly prepared list of salvation requirements.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

If you [read the Bible, starting with Matthew], in an un-biased and honest way, you will have the teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox churches on salvation.

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

"

Kamchatka wrote:

If you [read the Bible, starting with Matthew], in an un-biased and honest way, you will have the teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox churches on salvation.

Impossible. :-) Because the Bible, stripped of the Catholic Church, does not explain the Catholic teachings. That's because the Catholic teachings are based on the Bible, but also extrapolated beyond the Bible to place the Catholic church as a gateway between God and his people.

Catholic Bible: New Testament is the same as the Protestant Bible, only difference in additional books in the Old Testament.

Example 1: Exodus 20:2-3 [NIV], "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

Yet the Catholic church idolizes and glorifies saints, people of the cloth who've passed on. Not to mention all of the mother Mary idol worship, roasary, etc., etc.


Example 2: John 14:6-7 [NIV], "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Yet the Catholic church teaches that members are not capable of repentance through prayer alone, but must also confess to priests. In additional, the Catholic church teaches that salvation requires the Catholic church, and thus individuals on their own can not attain salvation.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Everything you just wrote about the Catholic church is incorrect. I am sorry you believe these false ideas.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

If you do this in an honest way, you will abandon the false faith alone teaching by the time you are done. I am not saying you have to be Catholic or Orthodox to believe the Bible, anyone can read it and believe.

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Everything you just wrote about the Catholic church is incorrect. I am sorry you believe these false ideas.

Even the Catholic Church itself will tell the world that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. They will defend that point, but try to twist it into an understanding that is more palatable.

Example: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

"

Kamchatka wrote:

If you do this in an honest way, you will abandon the false faith alone teaching by the time you are done. I am not saying you have to be Catholic or Orthodox to believe the Bible, anyone can read it and believe.

No, you are saying that there is no salvation for Christians outside of the Catholic/Orthodox church. That is truly funny.

In contrast, us non-denominational Christians have faith that all who believe in God and accepted Christ as their savior are saved. That includes Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.

Whenever you take just one Christian church and claim that is the only true way to God and salvation, you are stepping in to speak for God himself. And that is wrong at best, and cult-like at worst.

I have quoted scripture, I have linked to articles, and generally referenced God's and Jesus' words to demonstrate examples found in the Bible. All you've done is state your religion is too much to quote and discuss in these forums, yet keep telling me to read the Bible, which as a Christian I've done many times.

"

Kamchatka wrote:

Creating theology based on just a few Bible passages, and ignoring everything else in the Bible that contradicts your invented theology is a poor form of theology, that is all you have done in this thread.