is juggernaut overshadowed by berserker?

"

grepman wrote:

a ranger investing in acro+dodge, evasion and having some one-shot prevention (basalts, toh/coil, cwdt+ic) just does fine. especially since most of the time ranger is ranged.

as far as investment goes, thats the point. that stuff you invest in damage for ES/vp toon, you invest in defenses.

now life could use some more choices of life sources on the tree (so people dont gangbang the scion's wheel), but in general non-vp life is in a fairly ok spot now, its that ES and instant leech are so retarded right now, theres no comparison.

Acro-dodge.

OK, whatever. I guess we're trolling now. And no, ranger does not imply that she does ranged only builds.

The point of defences is to stay alive. However staying alive seems to be a cardinal sin in this game and part of its community, so might as well not even bother, since whatever form of defence someone gets to function reliably will get nerfed.

"

Apos912 wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

a ranger investing in acro+dodge, evasion and having some one-shot prevention (basalts, toh/coil, cwdt+ic) just does fine. especially since most of the time ranger is ranged.

as far as investment goes, thats the point. that stuff you invest in damage for ES/vp toon, you invest in defenses.

now life could use some more choices of life sources on the tree (so people dont gangbang the scion's wheel), but in general non-vp life is in a fairly ok spot now, its that ES and instant leech are so retarded right now, theres no comparison.

Acro-dodge.

OK, whatever. I guess we're trolling now. And no, ranger does not imply that she does ranged only builds.

The point of defences is to stay alive. However staying alive seems to be a cardinal sin in this game and part of its community, so might as well not even bother, since whatever form of defence someone gets to function reliably will get nerfed.

trolling ? no.

have you played evasion with near max dodge ? you get hit rarely and get some mitigation to hedge one-shots (taste of hate/coil + basalt), etc. in melee of course, its a bit worse. but then most raider/pf builds arent true melee (frostblades or blade flurry definitely not true melee, they dont require you to facetank the mobs)

same with block. a 75/75 block toon is really sturdy, but he will get hit a quarter of the time too.

again, conventional defenses require investing. evasion actually requires less investment than, say, armour or block. and evasion is better than armour at the moment. block is better than evasion because you can stack some armour and other things as block, but requires way more investment.

It is not Jugg that is bad, but Vaal Pact that is broken. Sustaining yourself in melee without it is simply not possible, be it Jugg or not.
GGG went with balancing for Vaal Pact, forgetting that not everyone is going Vaal Pact.

And yes, Kaom's Boots are broken as all fucks. Stun, Freeze, Chill, Temp chain immunity on top of 200 hp roll for what? Lack of movespeed and 4 silly gem slots? Lol.
These boots turn Temp Chain maps into free pack size with More Duration on you. Did I mention corrupted Temp Chain maps are cheaper? :D

Also, with double dipping in place, it is hard to best 40% more damage multiplier... 3.0 will hopefully fix that.

"

Perq wrote:

It is not Jugg that is bad, but Vaal Pact that is broken. Sustaining yourself in melee without it is simply not possible, be it Jugg or not.
GGG went with balancing for Vaal Pact, forgetting that not everyone is going Vaal Pact.

And yes, Kaom's Boots are broken as all fucks. Stun, Freeze, Chill, Temp chain immunity on top of 200 hp roll for what? Lack of movespeed and 4 silly gem slots? Lol.
These boots turn Temp Chain maps into free pack size with More Duration on you. Did I mention corrupted Temp Chain maps are cheaper? :D

Also, with double dipping in place, it is hard to best 40% more damage multiplier... 3.0 will hopefully fix that.

those boots are a big fuck you to the jugg. and the new phys explosion gloves are a slightly smaller fuck you to the gladiator.

I dont get why GGG had these distinguishing ascendancy perks and then just decided to put them on the items. this dilutes and devalues shit in ascendacies. really, how about new mechanics instead of recycling stuff ?

^ Meh, I like that class defining flavours are not locked behind classes and their mini-version are available elsewhere. More choice this way.

As for boots, Jugg can have the same effect + immunity to MS slows (tar) + 44% Movement speed over this boots user (and additional 4 link). MS is one of the best offensive/defensive/utility stats.

I am playing Mjol ES Berserker this league, and he is... nasty.

And he piss on my Jugg variant few leagues ago.

"

grepman wrote:

this is why a life-based berserker can sleepwalk tank through shaper beam and his balls, but Im still waiting to see a non-instant leech life based juggernaut to do it. ok.

but this is the thing, you just take 2 steps to the side and dont stand in it. Meanwhile, the entire rest of the game the life based leech tank dies many times to content a properly defended build can sleepwalk tank, stuff that is not as simple as take a step to the side and you are safe. We just care about different things, for you, if thats what you care about most, then zerk is best for you, I dont care about having to move aside for that beam, I care about a whole bunch of other situations.

That guy linked a video of liftings build earlier, its the wrong video but he has another one of him taking on guardians etc with the build on his youtube. In the video he is doing absurd amounts of damage because hes using the sprinkler which is pretty broken, but when you put that aside and watch it for his defenses what do we see? Death after death, situations where he doesnt die but its sketchy as fuck as he takes massive amounts of damage very rapidly and has to rush into melee range to start leeching again seconds before he dies, again, to something a character with proper defenses would never be worried about because they have damage reduction, entropic evasion and regen on top of their leech.

but he can facetank the shaper beam, probably, from what I remember he steps out of it because its simple to just step out of it and keep attacking. Is that the entire game now, standing in the shapers beam? I care about mapping 8 hours a day and staying alive there, I dont care about hey, I can facetank the shapers beam and I have /deaths 83 because I get gibbed in t13 maps by projectile attacks that burst me when Im not leeching.




The kaoms boots are terrible, you cant evade attacks, its stopping you having probably the most important layer of defense for a melee character. Most of my juggernauts are evasion characters, they just also have 20-30k armour and 7 or 8 endurance charges. Block isnt better than evasion because you can also stack armour, you can stack armour through the roof on an evasion character and the ev is entropic.

Im sure the way you guys play marauder melee, with no evasion sitting duck take a million damage from everything all the time, im sure that sucks and its way better to just go instant leech because the defenses you use are shit anyway, so whats the point in them? For the way i play I like playing characters that facetank things passively while not even fighting back rather than ones I have to rush into melee range and start hitting to be tanky otherwise I die. Thats how I like to play so for me bezerk does nothing rly, it doesnt offer me anything other than a substandard way to tank what Im already tanking. I dont like playing melee where I lose half my life in a flash, leech it back, everything in range is dead and suddenly I lose half my life and I have to quicksilver over to the next pack desperately trying to start leeching again before I die and then again and again, Id rather play a character who just stands in that room and takes 0 damage, I pet my cat, pick up some loot, then casually kill everything while taking virtually no damage at any point. When I farm uber lab, I kill izzaro 3 times and argus once, Ive recorded it and watched it back, across all 4 of those fights I got hit by them a total of 2 times despite facetanking them at point blank the whole time, and when they landed those 2 shots they did essentially no damage. Now a zerk can facetank them too, but what that looks like is you take 4k damage, leech it back, take 4k damage, leech it back, take 4k damage... sure both chars just facetank the fights and its easy, but I prefer the one that takes 0 damage over the one that takes massive amounts of damage from virtually every hit but leeches it back rly quick.

I dont think vp leech is the best defense in the game, at all, it lets you facetank the shapers beam which is something you can just side step with ease, it does that 1 trick, and thats it. Everything else you can facetank with other defenses, and often you can tank them from a distance while you are not leeching, facetank them while ur lagging and not moving or attacking, the whole lose half your lfie pool every other second and leech it back is fucking sketchy, everyone I know who plays like that with a life build had a serious death count. You want to play like that with a 15k es pool where you lose 1/4 of your life and leech it back using a skill like bladevortex where you keep leeching through lag etc thats something else entirely, that sort of build has the life pool to back up that play style and feel safe, even then you can do that and still have 8k+ evasion on top for an insignificant loss in dps/es so I dont see why you wouldnt do it.


Thats my opinion, for the kind of characters I build and the way I like to play jug is better, if zerker is better for your style then thats fine. Its personal taste, different ways of building, different gearing, different priorities.

Jugg sucks because the current emphasis is so far towards offence there is no competition. That doesn't actually make Jugg bad though it just isn't fotm, if they added a bunch of phys damage you couldn't leech through or too common to reliably play round it would surge in popularity.

Its kinda why Jugg gets used for uber lab farming, because uber izaro + mods is about the only fight in the game that is heavily skewed towards phys and i'd much rather play a Jugg on it than a zerker, everything is stacked more towards sponge defences and leech (ie dealing with ele/chaos damage).

You can see the same results in peoples choices for defences these days, many builds run very little just relying on clearing the screen before you need any. Lightning coils used to cost loads for example and I can buy one right now on hardcore where defensive shit is more favoured for 2 chisels. 2 chisels ... the last time i sold a lightning coil it was 85c lol.

edit: another piece of food for thought but if the dirty mobs that tul spawns in his boss fight were common Jugg would be way more popular lol, most phys attacks are melee and/or slow which means running around gives you 100% evasion. Fast mobs with frost blades are ranged and instant hit pretty much and the tul mobs caused so many issues in the breach league because they are practically the only phys damage monster than can reliably do damage to you.

"

Apos912 wrote:

Acro-dodge.

OK, whatever. I guess we're trolling now. And no, ranger does not imply that she does ranged only builds.

The point of defences is to stay alive. However staying alive seems to be a cardinal sin in this game and part of its community, so might as well not even bother, since whatever form of defence someone gets to function reliably will get nerfed.

Why does "Stay alive" have to be a binary value? Why is the game not allowed to try and kill the player?

The point of defenses is to mitigate damage. Mitigating damage is not an all-or-nothing deal - poor play should result in taking more damage than your defenses can mitigate. The game should be capable of killing you, and as has been demonstrated many a time by many streamers, the game really is not capable of killing half-decent Vaal Pact builds. The devs' continued attempts to make the game capable of killing VP characters has made things like Shaper excessively difficult for everything else.

Instant leech skews the curve and needs to go. Make Vaal Pact double the leech cap and leech rate instead of being instant, cap-ignoring leech - even that would be a really powerful boon, doubling the effectiveness of the best sustain option in the game, but then it'd still respect the same rules all other leech sources that aren't Acuity do and would also pull the investment in line with the return.

And VP builds would need to do all the other things everybody else has to do if they want to make a stab at Staying Alive, instead of spending almost nothing on defense but still being better at staying alive than almost every other type of build in the game.

Anyways. As for Juggernaut/Berserker issues...Kaom's Roots are an option but one I would not normally consider for most builds. They are very powerful now, yes, but they eliminate the evasion layer of defense completely. Given that I live my life on Stibnite flasks and how any sort of evasion or accuracy reduction goes a long way in protecting you from horde damage and even boss junk, losing evasion completely is a huge blow. I can very much see where Juggernaut would be useful over Kaom's Roots, but at the same time the Juggz is a pretty focused class. It helps you stay alive, and that is...just about it.

Berserker is unusually flexible for an offensive Ascendancy - War Bringer is surprisingly awesome as a defense/utility booster as well as making Abyssal Cry viable* as a primary damage source, and being able to just get leech without needing any Warlord's Marks or item leech or Leech gems or leech clusters or any of that sassery is very nice even on non-VP builds. Plus Aspect of Carnage is basically a free link on all your damage skills. Berserker offers movement, IAS, leech/sustain, defense, and a very big damage boost all in one depending on what you need. it fits more builds than Juggernaut does, but it's not better at staying alive than Juggernaut is.

Outside Cloaked in Savagery/Vaal Pact abusiveness, anyways.