is juggernaut overshadowed by berserker?

You don't need a giant reboot to the whole game.

1.) Make Vaal Pact good but not ridiculous.
2.) Knock some DPS off the worst offenders in terms of boss uberpwnage.
3.) Wait for people to realize that other defensive investments are often a lot more useful than people claim they are in this day and age dominated by CIGRVP and that Siggervup is not actually the only way to play PoE. Simply (for a while) the most efficient due to Vaal Pact being busted.
4.) Do this at the same time, ideally, as you fix double-dipping so people who think they're good at PoE have to figure out how to play legit again. (Disclaimer: I'm not good at PoE, just to forestall that inevitable argument)
5.) Watch.
6.) Laugh.
7.) Let the rest of your players who aren't pitching massive freakouts over not being able to do 45k ES with 100% instant leech facetanking triple Shaper beams on a Vulnerability map enjoy a much smoother and less lopsided path of Exile.

"

Apos912 wrote:

Yet another "this mechanic is bad, you'll see how much better everything will be without it", I'd rather not.

op mechanics need to be eradicated as soon as possible, if one cares about balance at all.
justifying an op mechanic with anything should disqualify anyone from speaking seriously about balance

its kind of like battling corruption. if you set out to battle corruption, you dont justify corruption with saying 'oh but he will be living in poverty if he isnt doing corruption stuff'.

"

1453R wrote:

You don't need a giant reboot to the whole game.

1.) Make Vaal Pact good but not ridiculous.
2.) Knock some DPS off the worst offenders in terms of boss uberpwnage.
3.) Wait for people to realize that other defensive investments are often a lot more useful than people claim they are in this day and age dominated by CIGRVP and that Siggervup is not actually the only way to play PoE. Simply (for a while) the most efficient due to Vaal Pact being busted.
4.) Do this at the same time, ideally, as you fix double-dipping so people who think they're good at PoE have to figure out how to play legit again. (Disclaimer: I'm not good at PoE, just to forestall that inevitable argument)
5.) Watch.
6.) Laugh.
7.) Let the rest of your players who aren't pitching massive freakouts over not being able to do 45k ES with 100% instant leech facetanking triple Shaper beams on a Vulnerability map enjoy a much smoother and less lopsided path of Exile.

well said; I would say #1 is tough to do without gutting it, so Id rather gut it than half-measure it.

There's a couple of potentially interesting ways to fix Vaal Pact to not be overpoweringly stupid without being garbage. I like the simplicity of it simply doubling leech cap/rate, so it still makes leech very powerful but you can't VP through Shaper beams or the like anymore.

Another possibility is reworking it to state "Life Regeneration is applied to Leech Cap instead", such that having, say...4% regen in the tree/on gear is instead applied as 4% increased life leech cap. That's significantly weaker and probably comes close to Garbo Mode, but it solves the regen thing whilst giving regen nodes a point on a VP tree and lets you scale your leech effectiveness based on investment.

Like, y'know...every other defense in the game that isn't a Stibnite flask, and frankly I'm a little amazed those haven't been nerfed down some too.

"

1453R wrote:

There's a couple of potentially interesting ways to fix Vaal Pact to not be overpoweringly stupid without being garbage. I like the simplicity of it simply doubling leech cap/rate, so it still makes leech very powerful but you can't VP through Shaper beams or the like anymore.

Another possibility is reworking it to state "Life Regeneration is applied to Leech Cap instead", such that having, say...4% regen in the tree/on gear is instead applied as 4% increased life leech cap. That's significantly weaker and probably comes close to Garbo Mode, but it solves the regen thing whilst giving regen nodes a point on a VP tree and lets you scale your leech effectiveness based on investment.

Like, y'know...every other defense in the game that isn't a Stibnite flask, and frankly I'm a little amazed those haven't been nerfed down some too.

well what I meant by 'gutting' is removing the instant leech mechanic altogether, so in this case its still 'gutting' to me ;) but yeah these certainly can work.

"

JohnNamikaze wrote:

"

1453R wrote:

Like, y'know...every other defense in the game that isn't a Stibnite flask, and frankly I'm a little amazed those haven't been nerfed down some too.

That is because blind only works on attack, so it is useless to use it on mobs that deal spell damage (unless you have status ailment removal on them).

in general, I dislike stibnite mostly because charges are dumb easy to get, and blind got diluted and devalued.

with that said, there are suprisingly many situations where a smoke cloud fails if you arent pf who can spam the flask. if you're ranged, the cloud is around you so ranged mobs will not be blinded, and bosses who move around will not generally be in the cloud(s) unless youre facetanking them.

up the charges on use and charges per use to 2 charges max, with charges required for one use being like 30, and cut down evasion % increase, and I think stibnite will be in an ok place.

"

nealn wrote:

is juggernaut overshadowed by berserker? what's been your experiences with this?

Defenses don't matter when you can do a ton of damage with instant leech, which Berserker + Vaal Pact can do for you.

"

grepman wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

this is why a life-based berserker can sleepwalk tank through shaper beam and his balls, but Im still waiting to see a non-instant leech life based juggernaut to do it. ok.

but this is the thing, you just take 2 steps to the side and dont stand in it.

that is irrelevant to the discussion.
this seems to be a recurring problem here too.

the point is not that shaper's beam is entirely avoidable- the point is that you can leechtank through the most powerful degen in the game with instant leech and you cant outregen it with a build specifically built as a regen tank.

true, its as long as youre hitting and damaging something, but in the age of supersonic move speed, pseudo melee, and retarded move skills, and increased pack sizes, the times you're not going to be hitting something is far and between...your entire post basically is based on this as a serious limitation. so you do agree that if you can meet this condition, instant leech is otherwise an infallible defense?

its not irrelevent, the fact is that being able to facetank through the shapers big attacks is irrelevent because you can easily avoid them. Its like saying a build with 20k es abnd 0 sustain is the best defended char in the game because it can tank vaal slams... to me thats irrelevant because you just step to the side and avoid it. What matters are things that are not easy to avoid.

you cant meet that condition, and thats why life based leech tanks usually have loads of deaths, thats why we have the videos of people dying in hardcore on melee builds to projectile attacks time and time again, thats why most people following that meta think life is shit and only ci is viable.

Trivializing shaper is an issue, its the biggest fight in the game and on that basis alone vp in its current state needs dealt with. But its irrelevant to day to day mapping, I would never make a vp life build, theyre shit imo. Im not the only person who thinks that way, Etup on the recent coffee talk said he hates vp for life builds too, probably because he doesnt give a shit about facetanking shapers beam, he wants a character that can play harsh rolled high maps all day and night for weeks and never die, and thats not the reality of life based leech tanks who have no defenses or life regen, theyre sketchy, fragile characters who die in my experience. they have their moments of ridiculous tanking, and then they have a lot more moments when theyre looking shakey as fk against things that are trivial for characters with defenses. Its basically just ci if ci had half as much hp and couldnt recharge its es, who wants to play that? Not me, sounds shit, every time I see it it looks shit, every time Ive played it its felt shit.

But then, the way I see most people making juggernauts is even worse, get a bit of armour, about 7k life, probably belly of the beast, 7 endurance charges and thats it... yeah thats a complete death trap too, thats even worse than a life based leech tank. Thats not juggernaut, thats people making bad characters.

"

grepman wrote:

izaro and argus are phys attack hitters. no shit armour and endurance charges makes them cakewalk. add a blind, enfeeble and even with 5k evasion its a breeze. izaro is trivial for both spectrums of builds nowadays. bursty glass builds kill him instantly, and tanks tank him.

phoenix has a fire thing u walk outside its range and come back in. Hydra has the balls you avoid. Apart from that all 4 guardians are just hard hitting attack monsters like izzy and argus. Daresso is an attacker, honestly I dont think spells are scary, its all big attackers where the dangers are in mapping.