keep modifications similar item level

"

DarkenDragon wrote:

0.0002 compared to 0.004 is still so minor that you wont even see the difference. sure its 20 times more, but the chances of you getting it is still very small that its not even noticing.

Sure, any given player may not notice the difference, but the league would still have 20x the amount. Combining loot drops and trading, that means 20 players will have the item compared to 1 as the system currently is. It is a massive increase when you look at the big picture.

I've found this discussion interesting so I made that chart DarkenDragon suggested using the numbers vmrob supplied. Hopefully I didn't completely forget how use to excel and mess this up but here is the chart at both 0-100% and 0-25% for acquiring energy shield from 500-900. I included the 0-25% just because I found it easier to see the differences up close.

your math is a bit wrong, its not a exponential equation, its a combination equation, meaning your using factorial, not exponents because you can not gain the same modifcation more than once.

so for those who want to do the math, let N be the amount of ranks

so the formula should be C = 1/(N!/6!(N-6)!)

so now your multiplier is no longer 64, its a much smaller number which I will not figure out cuz working with factorials is a pain in the butt

also another problem is that not all modifcations have the same number of ranks, since im suggesting a fix amount of ranks, N will be reduced by different numbers and not the static of half.

thus the formula is very complex and in most cases the amount of change is smaller than your looking at.

for instance critical strike chance on weapons only has 6 ranks, thus if we made 5 ranks below the minimum, we're only removing 1 possiblity. and only when your at max rank you'll see this difference, anyone leveling would not see the difference because they'll still be within the 5 rank threshold.

also many of the ones that arent being affected are % modifiers, which is fine because as gear gets better, the percentage is going to have equal impact.

but the ones that will be impacted are flat modifers which should and never be low values when you get to higher levels. because these flat values are the only ways to get these stats. such as life, mana, accuracy, defense stats, and many others. they do not scale well into late game

edit: actually this formual is wrong as well, instead N would be the amount of mods possible + 1 (becuase you could have no mob in that slot as well) but instead of 6 it'd be 3 and then you multiply the entire thing by 2, because you can only have 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes, and then but then you would have to do it case by case for N because each mod would have a different amount of choices in it as well, which cant be used by this formula at all.... I always hated calculus -_-;

let S be the amount of possible Suffixs, and P be the possible Prefixes, let N be the number of ranks
so let me break some things down to make it easier to follow, the chance of getting said rank is 1/(N), the chance of getting said modification is 1/X. the chance of getting said rank of that modifcation is 1/X*(N+1). now chance to getting all 5 is (1/N*S)*(1/N*(S-1))*(1/N*(S-2))*(1/N*P)*(1/N*(P-1))*(1/N*(P-2)) (this is assuming your using exaulted orbs to get all 6)

now thats what it currently is, but now dont forget, each of those N is a different value, they arent the same. so we cant combine it to become 1/(N*S!*P!). and the amount we're reducing it isnt the same either, but we can say that its going to be anywhere between 1-X where X is the minimum rank.

"

RU64pkmnX wrote:

I've found this discussion interesting so I made that chart DarkenDragon suggested using the numbers vmrob supplied. Hopefully I didn't completely forget how use to excel and mess this up but here is the chart at both 0-100% and 0-25% for acquiring energy shield from 500-900. I included the 0-25% just because I found it easier to see the differences up close.

Spoiler

thanks for the graph, I just wanted to add something to note. though the math is a bit off, and the values should be lower than represented, this graph does follow the trend it should be going just a little lower, but my point will still work with this.

now we're saying 900 ES is a godly amount to get, and 500 is resonable, and probably something you should be getting, at that level, but here it shows only a 5% chance of getting something you SHOULD be getting for that level of content.

shouldnt 20% be more reasonable for something that SHOULD be gotten?

and on top of that, getting the godly 900 ES is still barely noticable, EVEN when you magnify the graph for just that amount.

this just shows its something that would only help a player do what they need to get done.

"

DarkenDragon wrote:

your math is a bit wrong, its not a exponential equation, its a combination equation, meaning your using factorial, not exponents because you can not gain the same modifcation more than once.

so for those who want to do the math, let N be the amount of ranks

so the formula should be C = 1/(N!/6!(N-6)!)

so now your multiplier is no longer 64, its a much smaller number which I will not figure out cuz working with factorials is a pain in the butt

also another problem is that not all modifcations have the same number of ranks, since im suggesting a fix amount of ranks, N will be reduced by different numbers and not the static of half.

thus the formula is very complex and in most cases the amount of change is smaller than your looking at.

for instance critical strike chance on weapons only has 6 ranks, thus if we made 5 ranks below the minimum, we're only removing 1 possiblity. and only when your at max rank you'll see this difference, anyone leveling would not see the difference because they'll still be within the 5 rank threshold.

also many of the ones that arent being affected are % modifiers, which is fine because as gear gets better, the percentage is going to have equal impact.

but the ones that will be impacted are flat modifers which should and never be low values when you get to higher levels. because these flat values are the only ways to get these stats. such as life, mana, accuracy, defense stats, and many others. they do not scale well into late game

My calculations were for the suggestion of removing the lower half of the ranks from being possible... in which case the number of ranks is irrelevant since they'll just cancel in the formula.
This is NOT a combination. The combination part is unchanged (included in the C in my calculations). The only part that changes is the choice of ranks for each mod (after mods are already chosen), which is a 6th degree exponential effect since there are 6 mods.

The mods have about 7 ranks on average (some have more, a few have less, but this is a good enough approximation). So assuming 7 ranks for all of them...

Removing ranks more than 6 below the max would give a (7/6)^6 = 2.5 times more likely chance of getting godly gear.
Removing ranks more than 5 below the max would give a (7/5)^6 = 7.5 times more likely chance of getting godly gear.
Removing ranks more than 4 below the max would give a (7/4)^6 = 29 times more likely chance of getting godly gear.
Removing ranks more than 3 below the max would give a (7/3)^6 = 161 times more likely chance of getting godly gear.

..you get the idea

well what im trying to show is that the stats that you NEED to get in order to play the game at higher levels. what your worried about is the economy inflated with gear that people will NEED

but if we keep it the way it is now, we will have to rely on trading with others in order to get what we NEED in order to handle the end game. which is a poor design because not everyone wants to handle with the trading in order to get stats that we NEED to complete the game. i'd rather leave trading to be ONLY for superior gear that is hard to get.

which is shown by the graph created with YOUR data.

and I understand my formula was slightly incorrect, and i've made note of it, and explain the correct one, but either way, its not an exponential equation since not every modification has the same amount of ranks. and those that have large amount of ranks, are the ones with static values which dont scale well with end gear and are the ones that needs a cap the most.

Ok, full disclosure. Those numbers aren't from a formula. They're from a simulation that randomly rolls ES Chests that have between 4 and 6 affixes and tallies up the ones that meet a certain criteria. I don't care about the formula! When you run a simulation 1,000,000 times the level of confidence is pretty high. If you really want, I'll increase the sample size even further but it's not going to have a noticeable effect on the data!

"

DarkenDragon wrote:

but if we keep it the way it is now, we will have to rely on trading with others in order to get what we NEED in order to handle the end game. which is a poor design because not everyone wants to handle with the trading in order to get stats that we NEED to complete the game. i'd rather leave trading to be ONLY for superior gear that is hard to get.

which is shown by the graph created with YOUR data.

You don't understand how the game is to be played. By DESIGN we trade for gear. It's, by DESIGN, a social game. If you don't like playing with others, you should just accept, right now, that you'll never be as well geared as the people that are willing to trade for gear.

The game is designed to cater to those who are willing to trade and the game difficulty is based with the assumption that you will trade for items. If you don't trade for items (be it Man Mode or just a desire to ramp up the difficulty of the game), that's fine. You'll just have a harder time.

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TLDR; The game is balanced around this level of gear. Change that balance, you'll have an easier or harder game. The devs think the game is the right difficulty right now. It's a design choice. Making better gear easier to get makes the game easier which is NOT what the devs want.

You do guys know you can do any calculation you want ever to not increase the chance that "900 ES godly gear" drops, yet still make it so that you don't get a "+1 to accuracy" mod in level 80, right?

Just add variance and "loaded" probabilities into the RNG that decides which rank it gets.

I cba to do that, so that's you guys' job! :D

I honestly dont believe this game was designed that you are REQUIRED to trade in order to get required gear for your current level, that is just a silly notion and I would like to see reference to this statement before I'll believe it.

also if that were the case, why would they have solo races where trading is disabled. clearly they would expect that you'd be able to get the gear you need without any issues if you couldnt trade it. instead having to take account the entire population of the amount of chances to get the gear you actually need in order to play at the level you are at.

especially for a game that is determined to allow you to play the way you want to play, that would be a huge restriction

as for your "not a formula" sorry to burst your bubble but everything is based on a formula. what you were doing is just using statistics to figure out what the ratios are. which of course is based on a formula the game uses to determine what is the chance of getting said value.

which again is a formula. and you used a formula to scale those values up as well. either way they arent calculated right because your assuming all modifcations have the same amount of ranks, which isnt true. some have less some have more. you cant just make it an exponent of 6, especially since only 3 of the slots can be any said mod because you can only have 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes.

You don't have to trade at all. I've only traded a couple times since the beginning of closed beta and all my time on alpha. You can get by just fine with your own drops and vendor purchases (which is more support against this suggestion, as it's not hard to get adequate gear currently).

Still, vmrob has an accurate point in that someone who is willing to trade has a much larger item selection available and will likely be better equipped. The devs have designed the game to encourage people to trade with each other, but it's still not required by any means.