We are seeing first hand why GGG needs to step in..

"

Emphasy wrote:

If this shows something than how easy it is to manipulate even big markets.

probably too easy for our power traders. if market manipulation is possible it should be reserved for the elite groups of traders, that's all what i got from this thread's op.

and calling for xyz to censor those (for whatever reason) afk traders (which he obviously did) is hilarious.
doing this, xyz is actually executing powers he shouldn't use, to be more blunt, he is abusing his power to modify parts of the game which may even be intended who knows). i really hope this has consequences.

if there is an authority to stop fake offers that would be ggg only. some players creating ignore list and stuff to protect themselves is negligible, xyz executing his unbelievable power to remove people from trading is dangerous as it kills the respective account.

"

Emphasy wrote:

If someones sets a buy offer, he is required to actually own the currency, this would mean such huge market manipulations would require a lot of currency to be owned and essentially be frozen during the process.

yep, good solution. short selling shouldn't be possible.

"

Emphasy wrote:

b) Set a Tax on every transaction, which means people that only buy a few things are hardly effected while people can't flip for just a little profit because the tax would eat all the benefit.

would prevent item price deflation and increase the player's pressure to decide if it's worth selling the items. so prety ok.

i also liked the idea of someone that the game should drop account bound trading tokens which can be used to sell one item.

"

vio wrote:

"

Emphasy wrote:

If this shows something than how easy it is to manipulate even big markets.

probably too easy for our power traders. if market manipulation is possible it should be reserved for the elite groups of traders, that's all what i got from this thread's op.

and calling for xyz to censor those (for whatever reason) afk traders (which he obviously did) is hilarious.
doing this, xyz is actually executing powers he shouldn't use, to be more blunt, he is abusing his power to modify parts of the game which may even be intended who knows). i really hope this has consequences.

if there is an authority to stop fake offers that would be ggg only. some players creating ignore list and stuff to protect themselves is negligible, xyz executing his unbelievable power to remove people from trading is dangerous as it kills the respective account.

"

Emphasy wrote:

If someones sets a buy offer, he is required to actually own the currency, this would mean such huge market manipulations would require a lot of currency to be owned and essentially be frozen during the process.

yep, good solution. short selling shouldn't be possible.

"

Emphasy wrote:

b) Set a Tax on every transaction, which means people that only buy a few things are hardly effected while people can't flip for just a little profit because the tax would eat all the benefit.

would prevent item price deflation and increase the player's pressure to decide if it's worth selling the items. so prety ok.

i also liked the idea of someone that the game should drop account bound trading tokens which can be used to sell one item.

Let's get this straight.

GGG (apparently) states they have no interest in advancing the way we trade in-game. No auction house, and so basically everything is fair game.

A third party makes a website that everybody uses because it's REQUIRED in a game like this.

People abuse THAT website, and you think the owner of that site has no power and GGG is entitled to make those decisions? What? Where is your logic?

The only person who does care about the trading community, stopped the scamming.

How can you possibly argue against that unless you were one of those people?

"

GGG "says" they don't care about adding anything more into the game trading related. No auction house, and basically everything is fair game.

narp, they talked about improving trading in steps and didn't announce that the latest steps were the end of it.

they even implemented a auction house for the china version but didn't deploy it to the main realm for obvious reasons.

regarding "fair game": yes, their definition of scamming is somehow "lacking" but when they said there were "issues with trading" they never referred to afk sellers directly as far as i remember.

"

So a third party makes a website that everybody uses because it's REQUIRED in a game like this.

yes it is.

"

People abuse THAT website, and you think the owner of that site has no power and GGG is
entitled to make those decisions? What? Where is your logic?

some people are indeed abusing it and some people may not abusing it because they are afk for other reasons. are you to decide what's scamming and what not?

fake sellers make it difficult for people to just take the lowest price from poe.trade and underbid it to "fast trade". this is an important effect because it prevents item price devaluation and may be a desired effect.

and of course has the owner of poe.trade the power to exclude people from it's site. it's his creation after all. but he has no right to do s because the effects this exclusion has goes over his little database backend right into the realm of ggg.

ggg has the power and the right to exclude him from the api stream. this will not happen though as he is the only who runs a trade forum parser but i wouldn't stress the abusage of power if i were him (if he did it at all, that is).

---

i'm one of those guys who aren't waiting until the abusage of power hit's them personally even if they did nothing wrong, you're obviously on the other side.

the way to hell is paved with good intentions they say...

"

vio wrote:

"

GGG "says" they don't care about adding anything more into the game trading related. No auction house, and basically everything is fair game.

narp, they talked about improving trading in steps and didn't announce that the latest steps were the end of it.

they even implemented a auction house for the china version but didn't deploy it to the main realm for obvious reasons.

regarding "fair game": yes, their definition of scamming is somehow "lacking" but when they said there were "issues with trading" they never referred to afk sellers directly as far as i remember.

"

So a third party makes a website that everybody uses because it's REQUIRED in a game like this.

yes it is.

"

People abuse THAT website, and you think the owner of that site has no power and GGG is
entitled to make those decisions? What? Where is your logic?

some people are indeed abusing it and some people may not abusing it because they are afk for other reasons. are you to decide what's scamming and what not?

fake sellers make it difficult for people to just take the lowest price from poe.trade and underbid it to "fast trade". this is an important effect because it prevents item price devaluation and may be a desired effect.

and of course has the owner of poe.trade the power to exclude people from it's site. it's his creation after all. but he has no right to do s because the effects this exclusion has goes over his little database backend right into the realm of ggg.

ggg has the power and the right to exclude him from the api stream. this will not happen though as he is the only who runs a trade forum parser but i wouldn't stress the abusage of power if i were him (if he did it at all, that is).

---

i'm one of those guys who aren't waiting until the abusage of power hit's them personally even if they did nothing wrong, you're obviously on the other side.

the way to hell is paved with good intentions they say...

I get your point, letting a person have that much power, and use it, is worrisome, and especially when it's from a third party.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if you've heard about power abuse from this guy. I sure haven't. I'm sure I could find a post or two, but who really knows if that's true or not. All I'm saying is, for how long this site has been in existence, the owner has a clean track record as far as keeping trading as legit as possible.

In this case, I personally feel it's 100% fair and deserved. Despite your argument on afk sellers, all of the guys I had originally shown in my screenshot had auto reply messages set, they had no interest in fulfilling their listed offer. They had an interest in either trolling, scamming, or both. And by no surprise, these were the same people listing fake offers by 20-30% less than a "regular" offer, and then sending stupid auto-reply messages out and not actually doing a trade.

At the same time, I feel this is something GGG inevitably HAS to deal with now.

Afterall, what poe.trade is, is directly a result of what GGG has allowed & wanted.

I really feel we have 3 options.

#1 - Let players scam each other and troll and post fake offers which will & already did single handedly destroy the economy.

#2 - We continue on the path we are in, which is in my opinion the middle of the road. The easy to spot market manipulators/trolls get blacklisted from poe.trade. Maybe there's some cases of power abuse, maybe there isn't. We at least have a some what decent, yet band-aided trading economy.

#3 - GGG officially supports a fully functional trading system of sorts. Imo, it has to be something in-game, where you require an item/currency before you can post an offer. Where there is a fee to use it, and I'm sure a few other tweaks to go along with it as we find problems with it. This will also future proof the game, so long as GGG continues supporting it, because they are 100% in charge of what goes on, not an outside source.

And by no means is option #3 perfect. There WILL be problems. The internet always finds bugs, exploits, ect. But I think it's the best option we have as far as a stable, legit, trading economy.

"

Let's get this straight.

GGG (apparently) states they have no interest in advancing the way we trade in-game. No auction house, and so basically everything is fair game.

A third party makes a website that everybody uses because it's REQUIRED in a game like this.

People abuse THAT website, and you think the owner of that site has no power and GGG is entitled to make those decisions? What? Where is your logic?

The only person who does care about the trading community, stopped the scamming.

How can you possibly argue against that unless you were one of those people?

The guy you quoted is one of those people and has said as much in other threads.

"

DurianMcgregor wrote:

The guy you quoted is one of those people and has said as much in other threads.

yeah, because i'm curious about the effects of the trade abuse i'm one of the abusers.
like people who think human rights also valid for rapists they must be rapists themselves?


the effect i'm interested in is that fake offers by more people would result in poe.trade not being effective for easy price checking anymore.

on top of that ggg never liked buyouts according to chris' interviews. so, for me, fake offers work in the interest of ggg.
would you like to discuss this before you probably jump to the straight conclusion that ggg is behind the fake offers.

and no, i'm not selling aluminium hats to profit from my theories!!1

"

I get your point, letting a person have that much power, and use it, is worrisome, and especially when it's from a third party.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if you've heard about power abuse from this guy.

well, i remember of similar occasions where he played trade police when people were abusing the trade's item notes to be listed on top of other offers before he singlehandedly just removed the usability of those notes.

maybe i'm overstating this in a paranoid way but it's just that i don't want the game to end up groups blackmailing players to either pay 30 exalts or be somehow removed from trade by faked evidence from fake accounts.

"

At the same time, I feel this is something GGG inevitably HAS to deal with now.

a statement from ggg towards these issues would be nice so we know about their stance on that.

"

Afterall, what poe.trade is, is directly a result of what GGG has allowed & wanted.

not only on this issue ;)
it's almost as if ggg just implements tech and never thinks about the abuse cases. or just just decides to deal with that later if it get's out of hand.

"

#1 - Let players scam each other and troll and post fake offers which will & already did single handedly destroy the economy.

uhm, just taking this one because i like it the most.

what do you think would be most interesting for players looking for gear: a market with heavily fluctuating prices where everybody can make deals (or lose) or a market where each item has a fixed price defined by some program which evaluates the item's stats?

Pro tip. Always sell abive the first couple lowest offers. Even take the time to whisper the lowest sellers to see if they are actually selling. 90% of time the cheapest prices are set by people in DND mode or never respond. This is how you know what sellers are real and fake. Ive never had issues selling items at median market prices. People will spam whisper the fake sellers till they get to your real selling price and you will get the sell. Hopefully people get smart and dont just sell below the lowest current price on poe trade.

"

vio wrote:

and calling for xyz to censor those (for whatever reason) afk traders (which he obviously did) is hilarious.
doing this, xyz is actually executing powers he shouldn't use, to be more blunt, he is abusing his power to modify parts of the game which may even be intended who knows). i really hope this has consequences.

if there is an authority to stop fake offers that would be ggg only.

Totally disagree with you here.

Xyz can do whatever he wants with his site. He isn't modifying "parts of the game" - he is modifying parts of his site. Noone is forced to use his site. If he wanted, he could just take the site down and be the only one who can use it. Or he could take the site down and only allow access to those who pay him. Or add some features like "pay me x€ and your name will appear on the top of the list (if the price of the item is equal)" etc. He could add all of that and still not be abusing his powers.

Of course, many people might stop using the site then or someone could create another public site etc (which might not be a bad thing).

But claiming that he cannot do whatever he wants with a site he has created himself and owns is completely wrong in my opinion.