One of major problems of the game - life leech

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torturo wrote:

You've played GD, you know how they treat the diseases. The difference of balance in both games is quite noticeable.

Yeah, there is a huge difference. Oh wait, is it?

PoE: Instant LL trivializes content, unless it's leech-immune mod on maps.
GD: Instant LL trivializes content, unless it's leech-immune boss or something.

PoE: Certain "Meta" builds (ES BV pathfinder) have several times higher clear speed and several times higher survivability than others, trivializing endgame content (T16 maps, Shaper, etc).
GD: Certain "Meta" builds (1h+shield Witchblade) have several times higher clear speed and several times higher survivability than others, trivializing endgame content (Crucible on Gladiator difficulty).

So, where is the difference? Yes, in GD "Meta" build is melee, and in PoE it's caster, but does it really matter? It's much easier to stack insane LL amounts in GD, btw, and LL is instant be default there.

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SuicideAll wrote:

(Hint: Anyone whom complains about labyrinth traps, enjoys the face tanking play style.)

Wrong. I enjoy both.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

PoE: Instant LL trivializes content, unless it's leech-immune mod on maps.
GD: Instant LL trivializes content, unless it's leech-immune boss or something.

I highly doubt you know what you are talking about. Leech trivialized content in GD more than a year ago, but it was put to its place.
You compared the whole balance of a game to the single mod of another game (which can be rerolled, lol), in attempt to make the slightest sense.

To make a moderately working leech char on GD you need crapload of investments, just to realize it hardly works on bosses and the various immune mobs. Unless you have a very specific well geared char with appropriate items + devotions, you can't depend on leech to survive. By this I mean you can't sustain off white/yellow mobs on ultimate reliably, not to mention heroes and bosses. You can't just throw some leech and jump in for the rescue.

Basically speaking, you either have a specifically geared char (resist reduction + leech) with top tier items, or need a single certain build (vitality SoC + whichever class) to leech successfully to an extent. But not to trivialize the content.
In short - you can hardly rely on a leecher, unless working strictly around it. Oh, also more likely won't be able to facetank the hardest of bosses anyway.

In GD damage is not even close in proportions to PoE, so it's another factor. In the latter you just need some leech and ridiculously high damage to outleech all of the incoming damage.

Just curious, how many successful leech builds have you done in GD? Or do you have any? Or do you have any top tier 85s at all?

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torturo wrote:

I highly doubt you know what you are talking about. Leech trivialized content in GD more than a year ago, but it was put to its place.

Oh, that's why any non-LL character struggles to survive, while LL ones just recover full HP pool with 1-2 hits? My Witchblade has completely different experience when fightning non-LL-immune mobs, and when fighting LL immune ones. The latter cause huge troubles if not paired with "normal" ones.

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torturo wrote:

You compared the whole balance of a game to the single mod of another game (which can be rerolled, lol), in attempt to make the slightest sense.

Official mod!
Oh, and i speak about truly challenging endgame content - Crucible on Gladiator difficulty. Campain is so easy that even far from optimal build steamrolls it. It's like completeting merciless in PoE - it can be done by most builds.

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torturo wrote:

To make a moderately working leech char on GD you need crapload of investments, just to realize it hardly works on bosses and the various immune mobs. Unless you have a very specific well geared char with appropriate items + devotions, you can't depend on leech to survive. By this I mean you can't sustain off white/yellow mobs on ultimate reliably, not to mention heroes and bosses. You can't just throw some leech and jump in for the rescue.

Yeah, sure, you need to pick 1-2 items with LL, or learn few passives with that property.... Then get 1-2 reliable sources of resist reduction (1 with weapon augment, another with devotions)... so hard..

Yes, you cant sustain from certain bosses, and those usually screw not just you, but all builds as well. In PoE, you also cant sustain from LL-immune maps, and those screw you. The difference is, in GD content is easier, so LL immunity is forgiving. In PoE, endgame content is much harder, so LL immunity will make you R.I.P if you realy upon leech.

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torturo wrote:

In GD damage is not even close in proportions to PoE, so it's another factor. In the latter you just need some leech and ridiculously high damage to outleech all of the incoming damage.

Your words. In GD, content is very easy, so even without LL, it can be done. If you implement harder content, then only LL characters will be able to trivialize it, just like it happens in PoE.

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torturo wrote:

Just curious, how many successful leech builds have you done in GD? Or do you have any? Or do you have any top tier 85s at all?

I made DW pistol Pyromancer, physical+bleed 2-h Conjurer, 1-h+shield Witchblade and few others, who didnt relied upon LL. Those "others" were much inferior to previous three. All level 85. My Witchblade is able to safely farm Crucible on Gladiator difficulty with extra spawns, and does it pretty fast. He is insanely strong, no other build can even relatively match him, and yes, he DOES uses LL to sustain himself. I tried him with LL, and he's like 3 times more fragile then.

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torturo wrote:

In GD damage is not even close in proportions to PoE, so it's another factor. In the latter you just need some leech and ridiculously high damage to outleech all of the incoming damage.

Damage is lower in GD, but LL bonuses on gear, passives, etc are much stronger (if we put Vinktar aside). in GD, you can relatively easily get 20% LL, while in PoE, you should dedicate all your gear and passive tree to achieve that %.
So, they're even.

Well the result is the same as in POE and every other aRPG that have life leech - it outperforms other stats by a mile. Its just overpowered mechanic that need to be well balanced.
While POE in my opinion made non-instant life leech work well with all those remakes and limitations, then there is still problem with instant leech.

Writing that you cant handle content without it is just another proof that something need to be done.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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SuicideAll wrote:

(Hint: Anyone whom complains about labyrinth traps, enjoys the face tanking play style.)

Wrong. I enjoy both.

You so silly.

Where do I say players that enjoy labyrinth traps, can not enjoy face tanking play style as well?

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

I made DW pistol Pyromancer, physical+bleed 2-h Conjurer, 1-h+shield Witchblade and few others, who didnt relied upon LL. Those "others" were much inferior to previous three. All level 85. My Witchblade is able to safely farm Crucible on Gladiator difficulty with extra spawns, and does it pretty fast. He is insanely strong, no other build can even relatively match him, and yes, he DOES uses LL to sustain himself. I tried him with LL, and he's like 3 times more fragile then.

You are basically saying what I do, and vice versa.

In GD leech helps to an extent, it pairs with the passive regen as a part of the overall HP sustain. Which is ok.
What I consider broken is relying on leech completely to sustain, and that's what I say is hard to achieve - besides the cases of investing hard in the process, playing with specific builds and specific gear. And no matter what, you are still cockblocked by certain bosses and mobs.

Now compare this to PoE, where you just slap 2-3% leech and faceroll any mob and any boss in game, just by your damage with not a single investment in leech mechanics. Simply because this game isn't balanced around instant leech (and probably is impossible to), and the power creep successfully skyrocketed the damage of certain builds (besides melee, ofc).

For me it makes a great difference.
And there are no attempts for a change in here, while in GD leech is targeted in almost every patch, which means someone at least knows the basics, finds an issue, and works around it. It also makes a difference.

My vote for removing instant life leech.

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Char1983 wrote:

My vote for removing instant life leech.

This or greatly reduce its effectiveness, since removing it will be a totall nightmare for tons of builds .

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skaterboy80 wrote:

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Char1983 wrote:

My vote for removing instant life leech.

This or greatly reduce its effectiveness, since removing it will be a totall nightmare for tons of builds .

I.e. they have to experience the horror that non-instaleech builds already experience?

Some parts of the game would have to be re-balanced, that is for sure. But that is the whole point.